June 2002 posts
Good news... -- Rob, 05:49:47 06/25/02 Tue
It looks like my grandma is going to pull through, and make a nice recovery. She's not completely out of the woods yet, but the doctors are very optimistic...so I'm trying to be, too. She's improved immensely from only just two days ago, when they thought she was at death's door. So thanks everybody for all the support and love and all that good stuff! Now maybe I can enjoy being in Southern Fl. a little! lol
I'll update, of course, if the situation changes. But things are lookin' good! :oD
Rob
[> Glad to hear the good news..... -- Rufus, 05:51:48 06/25/02 Tue
Now maybe you can relax and enjoy the rest of your stay....:):)
[> Re: Good news... -- MaeveRigan, 05:58:56 06/25/02 Tue
Glad to hear it, Rob. I know what it's like to have aging relatives in ill-health. And a little R&R is always welcome, especially after a stressful time!
We miss you.
[> [> I'm so glad -- LadyStarlight, 06:19:10 06/25/02 Tue
I hope she continues to recover. Best wishes to all.
[> Glad to hear this!!! :) :) :) -- Rowan, 06:27:17 06/25/02 Tue
[> Great news - I'm glad to hear it ;-) -- shadowkat, 06:48:20 06/25/02 Tue
[> Gosh! You miss a couple of days off the board... -- Marie, 07:22:01 06/25/02 Tue
...and you miss all the news! I didn't know she was ill, but I'm very glad to hear she's getting better!
Cyber flowers are on their way! (The chocs are for you!)
Marie
[> Great news, Rob! -- ponygirl, 07:40:24 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> Thanks so much, everybody. :o) :o) And Marie, the cyber-chocolates are delicious! -- Rob, 09:08:16 06/25/02 Tue
[> Hope things stay good! Enjoy sunny Florida, Rob! -- Exegy, 09:22:32 06/25/02 Tue
[> Yea! Hope everything continues to improve -- Liq, 09:28:10 06/25/02 Tue
[> Good to hear it, Rob... -- cjl, 10:09:17 06/25/02 Tue
[> Great to hear! :) -- Whisper2AScream, 10:21:05 06/25/02 Tue
Though what's with everybody's grandmothers in hospitals lately? I have another friend who's grandmother has been for possible cancer treatment.
Plus, one of my grandmothers broke her hip a couple of weeks back and is now in the middle of physical therapy after getting a plate surgically implanted to repair the damage. She was under observation for a while due to low blood pressure, and shallow breathing, but she's fine now. Getting adjusted to using a walker for a while, but things are looking up.
[> glad to hear it, rob! hope she'll be fine -- anom, 10:25:30 06/25/02 Tue
[> Delighted to hear it Rob - the Existential Scoobies wish her well -- Dedalus, 13:53:47 06/25/02 Tue
[> That's wonderful! :-) -- OnM, 16:40:40 06/25/02 Tue
[> Thanks to everybody else who responded...and more great news... -- Rob, 21:03:37 06/25/02 Tue
She went through a small surgery today to get rid of an infection that she got at the incision of hip surgery she had a few months ago (see Whisper2AScream, EVERYBODY's Grandma is breaking their hips! lol).
She came out of the surgery a few hours ago...The surgery went amazingly well, and took only 20 minutes. Her vital signs are all very strong...so strong in fact that she didn't have to spend any time in ICU and was taken immediately to recovery!
So she is all better now...except for the broken hip, but at least she isn't dying any more. :o)
Now I can enjoy the rest of my vacation, although I probably won't be back at the board on a regular schedule until I get back home on Monday. As it is, I have to sneak time in the early afternoon and late night, just to catch up with the stuff at the Board. It's been a stressful few days, but everything's all peachy now. And I want to thank everybody who sent me warm wishes, and everybody on the entire board, because reading the posts made me feel a whole lot better and take my mind off the recent troubles.
Love all you guys! :o)
Rob
[> [> That's wonderful news, Rob. ;o) -- Wisewoman, 09:14:38 06/26/02 Wed
This board is one of the best sources of healing energy I've ever come across!
I was so glad to hear the good news about your grandmother's recovery. It must help her to know that the members of her family are there with her, including you!
Take care,
dubdub
[> Sending warm wishes for her speedy and full recovery!! -- redcat, 21:57:26 06/25/02 Tue
Wonderful ASH interview for EW (no spoilers) -- Rob, 06:17:34 06/25/02 Tue
Ripper van Winkle
Buffy's boss dishes on the series' future. Anthony Stewart Head tells EW.com about Giles' dark side and explains why you shouldn't put your feet up on the sofa by Liane Bonin
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" star Anthony Stewart Head has plenty to celebrate this summer. First, his fuddy-duddy character Giles proved that Buffy isn't the only butt kicker worth watching on the show's recent finale; and this month a DVD boxed set of "Buffy"'s second season hits stores.
EW.com talked to Head, 47, about why Europeans get the best ''Buffy'' goodies, what he's been up to since returning to his native England, and why he isn't worried that the end might be near for his beloved vampire-bashing show.
Last year you asked ''Buffy'' creator Joss Whedon to limit Giles' screen time so you could return to England to be with your family. What else have you been up to?
I did a series in England called "Manchild." BBC America will be showing episodes in August. It's a very funny show about four men in their late 40s who have all the toys: the fast cars, the bikes, the young model women, all that stuff. But the show reveals that everything has its price. My character finds he has some problems with his libido.
So you've had some love scenes? Giles would be shocked!
Yes! As soon as I came back to England I did another love scene in a show here called "Spooks," so I seem to be doing a lot of them for the first time in my life, which is very odd. Even in the Taster's Choice commercials [a popular series of ads that ran in the 1980s], we never got our kit off. All we did was kiss, and even then there was debate over whether I should have my feet up on the sofa, because that means you've made out, apparently.
Originally you were scheduled to star in a British "Buffy" spin-off called "Ripper," but Joss Whedon's new Fox series, "Firefly," seems to have gotten in the way. What's "Ripper"'s status now?
"Firefly" hasn't bumped it; it's just displaced it slightly. "Ripper" is still on the map, and the BBC still wants to do it. Fox [the studio that produces "Buffy"] is still interested, so it's ultimately about when Joss has some time. But I'm doing another season of "Manchild" until mid-October, so I won't be available at least until then.
Why ''Ripper''? Sounds like a pretty tough name for Giles.
It's his nickname from when he was younger, and basically it implies a darker side. There's a side to Giles that kicks butt when he has to and that loses himself in the darkness. He's not all paternal.
Will we be able to see ''Ripper'' in the United States?
UPN has expressed an interest in it, but they would want 22 episodes. And Joss said no, because he wants to do what we do in England, which is produce about six episodes a year. How that would work for American television I don't know. You could bill them as TV movies, I guess, but that much hasn't really been resolved yet.
The season finale of ''Buffy'' hinted at what Giles has been up to in England. Will this be carried over onto the series?
We'll see. Joss is constantly thinking about where Giles is going. It's not just ''Tony's left the country and his character's stopped.'' From the moment he brought me back in episode 3 or 4, Giles was telling Buffy he had a flat in Bath and a whole life going on. Joss has created a real existence for him separate from Buffy. And I hope we see into that.
A lot of critics have complained that ''Buffy'' wasn't up to par last season. Do you agree?
As a whole, the season was more introspective, with the characters wondering, ''What do we do now that suddenly we're responsible for ourselves?'' I know some people complained about the three human bad guys, but if it had just been another evil demon, it wouldn't have had the same effect. It was much more subversive this way, and made so much sense for the story arc. So yes, I've read some of the reviews, but it's crap, to be honest.
Will we see much of you on ''Buffy'' next year?
I'm keeping my dance card as open as I can so when Joss calls for me I'm ready. But obviously there are limitations to that, and things are happening here. But we have some plans for next season, and we'll see where they lead.
The DVD boxed set for ''Buffy'''s second season was just released in the U.S., but in Europe season 4 is available on DVD, and season 6 is available on VHS. What gives?
Well, it's the first time we've ever been ahead of America on this kind of stuff. But the English and the American versions differ. Americans have much more additional material on their DVDs, because here everything that goes on the DVD has to be rated, and the rating board charges by the minute. So the English lot tend to be much thinner in that respect.
There are rumors that a ''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' movie may happen. Any details?
Just the other day I read that Sarah [Michelle Gellar] said she'd never make a ''Buffy'' movie, but that's the English press. Who knows? I think we'd all like to make it. But I think if it's ever made, it will be a while after the last episode of ''Buffy.'' It's not something that can be made while the show is current. Then, if it's two years down the road from when the series ends, it becomes about whether anybody's still interested enough for there to be a ''Buffy'' movie, plus where Sarah Michelle's movie career is, where Alyson Hannigan's movie career is, where we all are. But most of us would like to make it just for Joss. I personally would like to see the ''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' movie he always wanted to make, that he directs.
How are things different now that ''Buffy'' is on UPN?
People have been saying it's more risqué than it used to be, and that may be because UPN doesn't have a specific age demographic. I can just imagine the smile on Joss' face at the stuff he's managed to get through the censors. The only other real difference is that more money is available, and the show can do more in terms of production value. When you read the scripts now, you say, Hello, we never could have done that two years ago, because the special effects would have been too expensive.
There's buzz that next season could be ''Buffy'''s last. How do you feel about that?
It's all subject to contract, and it's all subject to where Joss' head is. Personally, I think it would be a good thing if the show finishes on a high. If you pursue something until it's beaten to a pulp, there is no possibility, no future, because it's done its thing and everyone's tired of it. I think Joss is on the same wavelength. I would hope the network and the studio would allow him to do what he feels is right. And if that is that the next season is the last, then so be it. Besides, you know the show will be around in repeats forever.
__________________________________________________________
I got the article from http://www.ew.com/ew/report/0,6115,264153~3~0~buffysbossdisheson,00.html
I thought ASH gave a great interview, although the questions weren't the best. And why no mention of his CD? Anyway, I thought it was especially great to hear him sort of possibly un-nix the "Buffy" movie, and hear him sound-off on Season 6 critics (sorry Season 6 critics here lol!).
Rob
[> Re: Wonderful ASH interview for EW (no spoilers) -- ZachsMind, 10:24:07 06/25/02 Tue
I like ASH's words about the possibility of this being the last season. I share his sentiments. It's best if Buffy leaves on a high note. However it would also be interesting to see the story carry on in some way, either with some Buffy characters migrating to Angel, or Ripper, or going off on their own.
Personally I'd love to see a Joss Whedon produced tv series that featured Xander, Anya, Jonathan, and a VW Van that doubles as a temporal anomaly. Call it "WheelMan." Sort of a Doctor Who meets Sliders kinda scifi comedy. The show would start in Sunnydale in the pilot, but the van would go where it thinks Xander unconsciously wants to go at the moment, and Xander doesn't know where he wants to go. There's still an infinite number of possible stories with these characters, but Sunnydale's been pretty much tapped out storywise. They need to explore new territory.
I just think with them returning to Sunnydale High after blowing it up two or three years ago, and this general attitude of getting "back to basics" maybe the series has come full circle and they should wrap "Buffy" up this season and move on.
Robot Metaphors: Perfect Solider Parts I & II (spoilers to grave) -- shadowkat, 09:56:01 06/25/02 Tue
Robot Metaphors Part III: The Perfect Solider
(Continuation of Robot Essays & Posts. Thanks go to everyone who replied to my previous post. A special thanks to Masq who braved the wrath of the voy demon to save it, thank you! This portion was far harder than I thought…we'll see if it makes sense. Refer to quotes and posts by Age, Exegy, Off-kilter and ponygirl, also Rahael gave me the idea to discuss Daryl.)
Spoilers to Grave!
Last August, my boss gave an impromptu instruction session on management techniques. The crux of his little lesson was the perfect manager had the same responses and abilities as a robot. Perfect. We seem to be obsessed with the word perfect. I remember reading an interview with SMG about the musical and how she didn't want to do another one without lots of practice because she is a perfectionist. She isn't happy unless it's perfect. The perfect performance. The perfect weight. The perfect image. The perfect world - a world of plasticine images and smooth lines.
This is a popular theme in science-fiction. Robots, the perfect automatons would control society in a better manner than humans, because those nasty chaotic emotions wouldn't get in the way. The Terminator was about the robots killing off the humans, because they felt the humans were a disease on the planet. Matrix followed a similar idea. Then there's the Japanese Anime and Magna novels where people are combined with robotic parts to make them more durable, able to withstand anything. The Japanese magna and anime sci-fi concentrate heavily on avoiding apocalypse, the results of nuclear war, and the negative results of technology. The anime film Ghost in the Shell falls into this category.
Several years ago while I was wandering around Wales persuading innocent villagers to tell me folk stories, I shared a ride with two military guys - serving time in Italy. I believe they were army but can't remember. Anyway we got to talking and they told me that in the military - you aren't supposed to think, except to the extent that you can understand and obey orders. The perfect solider they told me was a robot, someone who would back you up without question. You needed people who would climb a hill and race into a firestorm, possibly getting killed in the process. If the soliders questioned their commanders, we'd have mass chaos. In boot camp, he told me, we're taught to obey, our ego is stripped away, until there is just a grub, a solider, obeying orders in its place. The perfect robot. Or at least that's the intent. But suffice it to say, life doesn't work that way. We're human, we feel and it's awfully difficult to ignore emotions when it comes to things like killing other human beings or getting killed yourself.
So wouldn't it be wonderful if we could create the perfect solider? A robot to fight for us? And why stop there? How about the perfect cop? The perfect fireman? The perfect student? The perfect worker? The perfect teacher? The perfect actor? I remember in grade school, we theorized that in the year 2001 - our teachers would be robots or computers. And just a few years ago, with all the advancements in animations and digitization, it was theorized that soon we would no longer need human actors. Robots could do everything. And they'd be better at it than us, because after all they didn't have our problems, they didn't possess what Freud would have called the id. No need for comfort, food, shelter, love, sex or joy. Automatons. Perfect.
1. Adam, Daryl, and Frankenstein
In Btvs, Professor Walsh through the use of Skinner-like conditioning techniques, medical science and technology attempted to create the perfect group of super-soliders. She started small with Riley and the Initiative soliders, then built her way up through chipping demons like Spike, and finally the creation of Adam. Professor Walsh's motivation is simple; she just wants to make the world a better place and to be God. She even calls Adam and Riley her sons. Her creations. She's a bit like Dr. Frankenstein in the Mary Shelley novel of the same name.
In Frankenstein - the protagonist, Dr. Frankenstein believes you can create life from death. He believes by doing so, we have conquered death. Shelley wrote the novel shortly after she miscarried her first child. Tormented by dreams of giving birth to a monster or having her dead child brought back to life, Shelley wondered what would happen if we tried to circumvent nature and create life from death. The results were chaotic. The resulting Monster destroyed everything Frankenstein valued. This reminds me of Professor Walsh, who like Dr. Frankenstein strives to show the scientific world that she can harness the chaotic forces of nature to create a super-solider that will obey her orders. The perfect solider. Instead she creates the perfect monster: Adam, who like Frankenstein's Monster, kills her, destroys her reputation, and her soul.
This is not the first time Btvs has explored the Frankenstein theme. In Some Assembly Required, (Season 2, Btvs) a high school science nerd resurrects his dead brother, Daryl, from the grave by piecing together dead body parts. Like Frankenstein's Monster, Daryl wants a mate. Both Frankenstein and Daryl are lonely creations, outcastes. They remind me a little of Spike in Season 4, after Harmony has left him and he's forced to fend for himself. All three are outcasts due to the interference of science. Spike had a role before; he was Mr. Big Bad Vampire and part of demon society, a dark warrior. Now, with the chip, he's a neutered vampire that no one takes seriously, except the demons he pummels for fun. Daryl also had a role - he was the football hero. Then he died. And now he's been brought back to life and is alone. A monster. His brother did it supposedly out of love, playing god. Similar to Dr. Frankenstein who attempts to resurrect his dead wife after the monster kills her. Walsh to her credit, or discredit, had far less personal motivations. (This could also be paralleled with Willow who decides to bring back Buffy and later Tara. Willow is as arrogant as Prof. Walsh and Daryl's brother, believing she can play god with natural rules.) But back to Daryl, who wants a mate. And not just any mate - he wants a mate just like him with Cordelia's head. So his brother attempts to construct one, just as Dr. Frankenstein constructs one. But has a change of heart when he has to kill someone to complete the task. Frustrated, Daryl takes over and tries to do it himself. Fortunately Buffy stops him before he can kill Cordy. In Some Assembly Required - the creator once again has to deal with the chaotic desires of his creation. The boy's best intentions - to bring his beloved brother back to life only result in corrupting his brother's memory and everything his dead brother touches. His attempt to create something better, to cheat death, only causes more death and destruction. Just as Professor Walsh's attempt to cheat death and harness the forces of chaos only results in more chaos and death. Nature refuses to be controlled.
Like Daryl and Frankenstein are pieced together from corpses, Adam is revealed to be pieced together from numerous demons and humans and technology. A hodgepodge of medical and technical science. To the extent that the human part of Adam no longer has an identity, no longer exists, he becomes something new, just as Daryl and Frankenstein have. All three creations challenge their creators' vision, intent on following their own paths. 'We are not just tools to be used at your whim,' they seem to declare, going in the opposite direction from their creators' vision. Instead of being their creator's perfect child, a reaffirmation of life, they become monsters or reaffirmations of death and destruction.
2. Riley, Spike and Robocop
Riley, Walsh's second son, is the reverse of Adam, the good "perfect" son. Of course Riley isn't a monster, he's a man who has been feed drugs and conditioned over time to follow Prof. Walsh and the dictates of the organization that recruited him. Riley is already the perfect solider, created not by biology or technology but by behavorist conditioning. Riley is the result of "psychology". Super-strong. Smart. Follows orders without question. Sees the world in the black and white shades that the military and Prof. Walsh painted for him. He like the "Adam" in the Eden Story, avoids partaking of the tree of good and evil. He prefers the nice comfortable orderly world he inhabits. He does not want to follow his own initiative, he'd rather follow the government's or if you like the PTB's dictates, it's easier.
Riley reminds me a little of RoboCop, ( played by Peter Weller). In this film, a good cop (Murphy) who played by the rules, followed the system, and gave his life up for his partner in a bust gone bad, is co-opted by a huge corporation and turned into Robocop, a technological wonder of steel, computer chips, and human tissue. At first, Murphy has no problems with this, believing it is for the good of the public, then slowly discovers the corporation's nefarious ends and also what he has had to give up to become the perfect solider. He can no longer see his wife and child. He is in a word dead to them. He no longer requires human comforts: food, shelter, comfort, sex and love. I re-watched a section of Robo-cop II recently, in this section - Murphy's wife is suing the corporation and police force for what they did to her husband, who they insist is dead, but he still is visiting her as Robocop. The corporation pulls Robocop in and in a lengthy interrogation session conditions him to believe that he is not human, that he has no feelings, that he has no wife. That his primary purpose is to serve the law and nothing else. He must be the perfect solider. Outside life mustn't interfere with that in any way. Who he is and what he does is no longer dictated by him but by the organization he serves.
Riley tries to be the perfect solider, even gives his superiors the benefit of the doubt when Walsh attempts to kill Buffy. He doesn't trust Buffy's account of this event, even after he sees evidence of Walsh's culpability with his own eyes. (Goodbye Iowa) Riley is so conditioned by Walsh, that he can't quite believe she would betray him not until the evidence is made painfully real. In fact after Adam kills Walsh, he believes Buffy may been responsible for the Professor's death. His friend, Forrest, certainly believes it. It isn't until Adam appears on the scene and tells Riley that Walsh drugged him repeatedly over time and had big plans for them both that Riley begins to break with the establishment. Poor Riley, corn-fed farm boy joins the military, does well, gets promoted, only to have some crazy Professor use him as a psychology experiment.
Psychology experiments. The man is turned into a machine not through medical science but through psychological conditioning, through the breaking down of his defenses. The Manchurian Candidate is a classic example of psychological conditioning. The film starring Lawrence Harvey and Frank Sinatra is about a man who is conditioned to kill government leaders with post-hypnotic suggestion and drugs. His mother learns of his conditioning and uses it to manipulate her way into politics. In the end it backfires on her just as Professor Walsh's behavioral conditioning backfires. Riley doesn't do what Prof Walsh wants any more than Lawrence Harvey does what his mother wants. The difference, in Btvs, the good doctor uses drugs and behavioral modification chips instead of hypnotic suggestion. As Spike states at the beginning of Primeval, when he discovers that he, Adam, and Riley have chips, "Oh, I see, it's chips all around."
Riley isn't only conditioned by drugs; he also has a chip in his chest controlling his behavior. If he gets out of line, it will immobilize him. Professor Walsh thought of all the variables. Riley is the mad professor's unwilling lab experiment. The tragedy? Riley volunteered, he willingly subjected himself to the good Professor's tutelage but he did not subject himself to her lab experiments. She did that without his knowledge. So it's not his fault right? It's not his fault that he becomes her lab experiment, that he gets co-opted by the military, that he almost becomes something he hates. He's not culpable for the things the Initiative does.
In one of Age's posts (I think it was in reply to Exegy's Burial of Buffy), Age stated the theme of Season 4 was all about taking the "Initiative" in our lives, choosing our own course instead of having someone else choose it for us. Does Riley? In one episode, Riley tells Buffy he's not very good at gray, he prefers the black and white organized world of the military where people told him what to do. Buffy counters that while it is difficult to chart your own course it is worth it and he has options. He can either go back to the military or he can use what he's learned and find a way of fighting demons on his own. She had to make a similar decision when she broke with the Watcher's Council.
Unlike Robocop's Officer Murphy, Riley has choices. He is human, not a robot, not held back by technology. He can and does remove his behavior modification chip in Primeval and for part of Season 5, actually does attempt to chart a course away from the military. When his toxins are removed in Out of My Mind, he is no longer the super solider. No outside force has an influence over him. He is his own man. He can chart his own course. Officer Murphy in Robocop remains encased in his robotic armor, his choices dictated by those who created him. His attempts to break free are emotionally and morally scarring. He remains an outcast from his own kind, sort of similar to Spike. Spike tries on numerous occasions to remove his chip but he can't. It is permanently encased in his skull; forced removal could render him a vegetable.
In Season 4, Spike and Riley are closely paralleled. Both get chipped. Professor Walsh attempts to control both of them. Both become her unwilling lab experiments. She wants to turn both of them into a type of super-solider. (Well maybe just one, the other might be more of a dissection, but you get the point.) Both escape this fate. And both momentarily join Adam in his cause. Adam bribes Spike with the possibility his chip's removal while he uses Riley's chip to coerce him into participating.
This on-going parallel between Riley and Spike reminds me a lot of a Psych 101 course I took and hated in college. The course consisted of teaching a small, rather cute rat to run through a maze. To get the rat to run through this maze, we had to condition its' responses. The whole class was about how we can condition certain behavioral responses. In the case of the rat, if it ran in the right direction - it got cheese, if it ran in the wrong direction it received a small shock. Spike is given a chip that reinforces negative conditioning, it is technically speaking an electronic leash. What it does is change the course of Spike's existence. The chip makes it impossible for him to hurt a living creature. He can hurt demons as he discovers in Doomed, apparently the government doesn't consider demons living. He can also pick flowers or stomp on grass. But he can't hurt humans, dogs, kitty cats, rats, etc as far as we know. Riley receives positive reinforcement from his conditioning. He does the right thing, takes his vitamins - he gets super-strong and is promoted. Goes off his meds, breaks with the government - he becomes weak and kittenish.
Poor Spike. After the installation of the chip, he attempts to bite Willow and slay Buffy. Instead Buffy ends up saving him from the government. He does eventually adapt to his situation, becoming an informant for the SG. Occasionally fighting demons for them on the side. But in doing so, he has become an outcaste to his own kind. In the same episode that Riley leaves the Initiative, Spike is thrown out of Willy's demon bar. Both are forced to leave the worlds they knew, that they were comfortable in, and seek a new path.
Of the two, Riley eventually reverts back to the old one. For a while he follows Buffy's path as the demon hunter, until his super-strength is removed and she begins to shut him out of that portion of her life. Notice he's not charting his own path here, he's just following Buffy's, he has in effect switched from the Initiative's path to Buffy's "slayer" path. Unfortunately, Buffy isn't cooperating - as early as Buffy vs. Dracula, she leaves him out of her demon hunting duties. And in the beginning of Out of My Mind, Buffy is upset with both Spike and Riley for helping her. And Riley still has his strength at this point.
Instead of charting his own course, Riley has merely jumped from being the "perfect" solider in the government's initiative, to being the "perfect" boyfriend. And to his credit, he is the "perfect studly boyfriend" - at least in the beginning. Always provides that shoulder to cry on - whether she wants one or not. Always there to help with the demon slaying - whether she wants him to or not. Always supportive. All he wants from her is to feel needed. To have her lean on him. To be her project as she is his. Riley doesn't know any other way to treat her. As Graham puts it, "Oh so you're the Mission's true love? You used to have a mission Riley." For Riley, life has no meaning unless someone else sets the rules, boundaries, and of course, the mission. He likes following orders, being the "perfect robot".
Spike on the other hand, does not. He is after all a demon. And a particularly odd one at that. Adapts to the situation as it arises. And charts his own haphazard course. In Off-kilter's post, 10,000 methods of Spike, she paints the picture of a demon who doesn't give up. If plan A doesn't work, he'll try plan B to get what he wants. It's actually sort of inspiring to watch. And very different from Riley - who tries to set his own course, falls on his ass, and reverts back to the safety of the army, with its clear rules and boundaries. (*Quick disclaimer - I am not saying "our" military creates automatons or is an easy path in "our" world, we're talking about "Jossverse" metaphors here. Fantasy world guys not real world. I have the utmost respect for the real men and women who choose to serve our countries.)
Unlike Riley who goes with the flow, tries to be the "good" son, Spike fights it. He reminds me of A Clockwork Orange's Alex - making the most of the conditioning in his brain. Conditioning does have an effect on him - he reacts to the positive and negative stimulus of those around him like Pavlov's Dog (the dog who learns not to push the lever if it shocks him). If I can't hit humans, I'll hit demons - he thinks. Not because it helps humans, but because it gets rid of the violent energy coursing inside him, suffocating him. Spike doesn't want to be the perfect robot, he doesn't want to be held by someone else's strings. He desires to be in charge of his own destiny. His self-loathing erupts when he finds himself at the mercy of someone else's. Riley on the other hand prefers to be safe within the confines of the organization, the organization's solider or puppet. His self-loathing erupted when he was alone, purposeless. (See OOMM - Into the Woods, Season 5).
TBC on next line. ;-) shadowkat (assuming this posts, stupid
server.)
[> Perfect Solider Parts 3& 4 : Kendra, Sam, Buffbot, Warrenbot(spoilers to grave) -- shadowkat, 09:59:37 06/25/02 Tue
3. Kendra, Sam, The Buffy-bot and Ghost in the Shell
Speaking of puppets on strings, I recently rewatched the anime film, Ghost in A Shell. The film is about a cyborg girl (Major) who is defined completely by her job as the perfect operative for a secret organization. The "ghost" in the shell - refers to the computer generated soul inside the artificial body. Or real soul generated by the human brain harvested and placed in the body. The Major isn't sure which. At one point in the film she asks: "What if I'm not real? What if what I feel, who I am is all just based on how I'm treated by those around me?" She aches to exist outside other's constructs of reality. This reminds me of ponygirl's comment under my previous Robot Metaphor post, which asks - am I treating those around me as real or just as constructs of the reality I've imposed on them? Is who they are based on me?
Is who we are and what we do based solely on others' expectations of us? Their emotional programming? Are we, like the Major in Ghost in The Shell - tools for others bidding?
In Btvs - Kendra is the "perfect" slayer. She even has the slayer handbook. Follows it rigidly. When she was a child, her parents willingly gave her over to her Watcher. She never saw them again. Nor did she date boys or develop friendships. You aren't supposed to - she tells Buffy. Emotion weakens you. Emotional ties compromise you. You must work alone with only your watcher as your guide. This is similar to the First Slayer in Buffy's dream in Restless - we are alone and the slay is the only thing that is important.
Kendra's speech, her habits, even her reactions to people are almost robot like. She feels anger and embarrassment, but pushes these emotions aside, as not important. Vampires should be killed, regardless of souls. Emotion weakens you. Life is dictated by the books she's studied. It's telling that Giles mentions in What's My Line Part II, that even though he had a handbook, he knew it wouldn't work for Buffy. Buffy refuses to be the council's puppet. She refuses to turn off her emotions or follow the dictates of some handbook. Or be destiny's fool. Buffy refuses to be just "the slayer". While Kendra believes that being just "the slayer" is her destiny. A destiny which results in Kendra' death, and as Kendra would probably put it - as it's supposed to. Slayer dies. New one born. Happens all the time. And usually before 21. What does Spike tell Buffy in Fool For Love? "Your friends, mother, little sis, tie you to this world…without them you would have died long ago." He may be right, Kendra is easily taken out by Drusilla in Becoming Part I.
The Major in Ghost in The Shell, like Buffy, does not want to be just a puppet, she seeks to know herself and seeks to know the world outside of the network she is a part of. Just as Buffy seeks to know more than just slaying and the network she's a part of. Both eventually break with that network or organization, both suffer a type of death by doing so. The Major merges with another computer program or ghost and in doing so is freed upon the net, grows up, becomes more than just a "ghost" in the shell or as she puts it "an individual based on computerized memory." The other ghost or "puppet master program" that she merges with, tells her that "all things must change in a dynamic environment, to remain as you are limits you." Buffy seems to see this as well, by making the choice to jump from the tower of her adolescence, she is free to literally emerge renewed from the earth's womb as an adult. She makes the choice to jump. Not her watcher or the council who no doubt would have ordered her to kill her sister instead. Buffy jumps to find her own destiny, just as the Major jumps into another program to find her's. By dying both are resurrected to a new life. They don't necessarily choose this new life, the Major finds herself in the robotic body of a child and Buffy has to break out of her coffin. But both choose to continue to struggle forward, better for the experience.
Left behind after Buffy's jump, the Buffybot, remains unchanged. Continuing to fight Buffy's fight as Willow programs her to. Continuing to repeat phrases from her old sex programs to Spike. Even those programs aren't completely wiped out. She states inappropriate but charming quips that are reminiscent of Kendra. She treats Dawn as the nice little sister, unchanging in her attitude towards her. And admires Spike's washboard abs and brain as she did before she changed owners. The "perfect" little robot. Except for one teensy problem - like Kendra, she is easily killed. She can't adapt to new situations or live outside the box. If she gets injured, she goes to her programmer, when her programmer or mother abandons her, she is destroyed so that her ex-lover is left rumbling through the wreckage, mourning her loss while her surrogate sister gently tries to close her eyes. The Buffbot's death is as painful as Kendra's because neither reach their full potential, yet it is just as inevitable. Without the ability to grow beyond the boundaries of a reality constructed by others - we are doomed to be squashed by the changes and turmoil the world unleashes on us. In the Buffbot's case, it's the pirate demons who tear her apart like a little boy ripping the arms and legs off his sister's Barbie doll. They treat her as the toy she so accurately plays. In Kendra's case, it's Drusilla, Drusilla with all her lovely dolls, that kills Kendra, seeing Kendra as just another wind-up doll she can knock aside.
It is ironic that a Watcher created Kendra and Willow - a would be Watcher re-programmed and gave new birth to the Buffbot. Both the Watchers and Willow desire to control their world. They do so by finding and training slayers or in Willow's case programming a robot and bringing Buffy back from the dead. Like Professor Walsh, they mean no harm. They want to make the world a safer better place. But as Giles tells Prof. Walsh in A New Man, the Council in Helpless, and later Willow in Flooded, such control comes with an incredibly high price. Nature cannot be controlled. It must be respected.
Which brings us to Sam, the missionary turned solider. Sam is an interesting character. Like Riley she has been raised by organizations that adore rules and order. She is first the "perfect" missionary, then the "perfect" solider, and finally the "perfect" wife. Missionaries historically go into uncivilized areas to exert order. They believe, somewhat arrogantly, that they are civilizing the people, they are providing them with a set of rules to live by and thus bettering their lives. History does not always look kindly on the results. Novels such as The Poisonwood Bible, At Play in the Fields of The Lord, and Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness all discuss the chaos created by well-meaning missionaries, who arrogantly believe they can tame what they deem to be the wilderness. The women innocently view themselves as saviors, unaware of the destruction they wrought on the people they wish to civilize. This is Sam in As You Were.
In AYW, Sam hero-worships Buffy, comparing her to Santa Clause, which Anya told us was actually a child eating boogy man in THE BODY. Buffy is similarly compared to the boogy man by Forrest in Season 4. A mystical unexplainable force, outside the boundaries of reality defined by Sam and Riley's organizations. When Buffy and Sam discuss Riley's break with Buffy, Sam tells Buffy, there are no bad guys here. It was good you let Riley go. It took him a year to get over you. (Implying that Buffy was outside his reality, his league?) Better to be with no guy than the wrong one. These sound like platitudes, designed to make Buffy feel better, but result in the opposite. But Buffy can't help but love Sam. Sam is perfect. Kind. Comforting. She tells Willow that Willow has succeeded in doing something few can accomplish, give up dark magics. Charming Willow to exchange emails with Sam, a woman she swore she'd hate on Buffy's behalf. Xander receives advice on how to take pictures at his wedding, seeing Sam and Riley as the Perfect Marriage, which he, Xander, can only hope to live up to. But, as Exegy points out on numerous well written posts regarding AS YOU WERE (and Exegy - forgive me if I misquote you- don't have any copies in front of me, so going by memory here), these messages from Sam and Riley are comforting yet also slightly robotic and clichè. The Scoobies see Sam and Riley as the ideal, but if you look closely, you'll see the helicopter they leave in does not go up but across. Sam and Riley do not go to heaven. And their words are just platitudes similar to April's comforting clichés. "Darkness before the dawn…lemons make lemonade…the wheel turns, your up your down, your still a wonderful woman…" Do these words really matter when the meaning is hollow behind them? Riley knows nothing about Buffy's life. He doesn't even know she died to save the universe.
Riley and Sam get their mission, their strokes, their sense of reality not from themselves but from the organization they are with. As Buffy states - "do you get dental with that?" Apparently so. They also have gadgets, guns that misfire, and safe houses. It seems to be the perfect life - but is it? Is it just an illusion? Made of plasticine and kelvar and cool gadgets? The perfect world seems perfect from the outside, but if we dive inside it, we'll discover all too quickly how hollow it truly is.
4. Warren, Willow : the Warrenbot & Buffybot
No Robot Metaphor analysis would be complete without discussing the Warrenbot and the two people associated with it. Warren and Willow - very similar, two characters who hide themselves behind electronics and magic. They remind me of the Wizard of OZ, no not the title, the little man behind the curtain, the little man who put on such a big show for Dorothy and her friends, nearly scaring them to death. Don't pay attention to the man hiding behind the curtain the scary creation on the screen tells them. They do and reality changes. Like the little man, Willow and Warren are afraid to be seen as they are. They'd prefer to show something else to the world instead. Both are guilty of the same fatal flaw, they want to hide.
From the second episode of Season 1, Harvest, we see Willow hacking into a computer to get information on the city's sewer system. Willow is constantly hiding behind a computer. In I Robot You Jane - Willow is spending more time with her computer than her friends, preferring the company of the emails that drift across it. Later in Season 6, after Willow gives up magic, we see her once again hiding behind the computer - pulling out useful information on the geeks. Warren likewise hides behind a computer. Behind gadgets. He always has. It's safer than real people. Gadgets he can control. It's fitting that he uses a gun to kill Buffy, it's another man-made gadget. A gadget that Riley and his soliders use and Buffy states is never useful. Apparently it's more useful than she realized.
When Warren wants to escape from Willow's fury - he builds yet another gadget. Just as Willow reprograms the Buffbot to protect the inhabitants of Sunnydale from the demons. Neither gadget works. They are both limited. Willow easily destroys the Warrenbot and furious by his attempts to evade her, sets out with even more purpose to kill and torture him. I wonder if he would have been better off if she'd found him on the bus? The Buffbot leads the demons directly to Willow, breaking up her spell and almost getting her killed. Neither gadget worked as intended. Both were declared lost.
Warren and Willow are not content with interpreting their own reality, they want to interpret everyone else's as well. They want to control their world. They want to impose their will on it. Make it like it is in their heads. Just as Dr. Frankenstein, Professor Walsh and the corporations behind Robo-cop and the Ghost in the Shell wanted to control theirs. But what world are we living in when everything is mechanized and plastic and perfect? The world of Riley and Sam? Or the world of Professor Walsh? Do we really want someone else to dictate what we should feel? How we should do our job? What to aspire to? Do we want to become robots? Is it really so wonderful being perfect? Do we really want a perfect, mechanized world?
Thanks for reading…finally ran out of ideas on this one…LOL!
Thoughts? Feedback? Getting bored of me yet? Yep - feedback whore, I admit it.
: - ) shadowkat
[> [> Wow... -- ZachsMind, 11:41:31 06/25/02 Tue
Brilliant dissection of BtVS from the robot metaphor perspective. In essence all the characters of Buffy are trying to control their environment to their own ends using what resources they have available. Just as a military man behind enemy lines uses the limited resources of emergency rations and supplies that he carried in his pack coupled with whatever he finds in his environment to develop camoflage, shelter, hunt and eat food, etc., so too do we all take what's available on hand in our day to day lives to attempt to subvert reality to our own ends. Whether it's Willow's dark magicks or Professor Walsh's knowledge of psychology and humanoid anatomy, each character is guilty of twisting the rules of nature to their own ends. BtVS does an honorable effort in cautionary tales to warn of the inherent risks of this behavior as well as the unrelenting need of the human psyche to persue it.
Your exploration of Riley is particularly impressive. Rarely have I noticed fans try to understand his place in Buffy's universe so strongly and objectively. Most just gloss over him, opting either to like him or not based on his actions and reactions, when upon closer inspection his character is a most dualistic and tragic one. It's difficult to determine where the 'real' Riley begins and his conditioning ends. I noticed in the episodes prior to "Initiative" that Riley's interest in Buffy was shallow at best. She was "Willow's Friend" to Riley's perspective, and barely showed on his radar. At the start of "Initiative" Riley's friends take note of Buffy as a sex object, but Riley dismisses her as "peculiar" and seems to not be intrigued by her beyond that. Then there's a conversation where Buffy confronts Walsh about her impersonal approach to student/teacher relationships, and after Buffy leaves Walsh turns to Riley and pointedly says to him, "I like her." From that moment on he suddenly starts noticing Buffy in a new light. So we get a glimpse at just how subtle yet effective Walsh's conditioning of Riley is. In a later episode when Riley & Buffy are in bed sleeping together, we see Walsh voyeuristically observing their nocturnal activities via survelliance cameras, and it's disturbingly revealed just how under the microscope Riley is to her. How much of a lab rat he has been. Even after her death, Walsh's influence upon Riley is hauntingly effective.
You compare Riley to Robocop, but I see him more like Marvel comic's Captain America. A soldier who has been remarkably conditioned and 'labratted' by the American military into a killing machine and does dutifully follow the orders of his 'mother' as best as he can while still hoping to retain a sense of individuality. Riley becomes a darker more realistic variant of a Captain America, who eventually comes to some sense of balance. We see in "As You Were" that he still serves the military that he holds dear, but he does so on his own terms and still manages to attempt a framework of a family life and a sense of self, despite everything that has happened to him.
Overall your essay is very detailed and remarkable, but a bit fragmented. There's a lot of material to cover because the 'robot metaphor' is a powerful motif that does make several appearances throughout the overall plot arc of the series. Each example you point out from Riley to Kendra could be made into a separate essay all its own. Excellent work.
[> [> [> Re: Wow... -- shadowkat, 13:04:41 06/25/02 Tue
Yup - got ambitious again, realized halfway through that I was trying to condense a forty page essay into ten pages.
Oh well. Glad you enjoyed it though. ;-)
And you're compliment means a lot - your broken yellow crayon post on Willow was quite good.
On Riley, I do see a Captain American reference, both stalwart and true, characters who see the world in blacks and whites. Except I think Cap' has risen above this, he
appreciates the X-Men and mutants and doesn't see them as just animals to be killed. Riley - well we don't get that much of him, and the writing of AYW was not great, but my feeling was he hadn't changed that much. He still seemed to see demons in one big category - evil - kill. That said, the episode felt ambiguous to me - I wasn't sure if Riley was meant to be a character who was full-fledged and completely together now or still the conditioned Initiative robot boy...who had run off to the safety of the army. You can argue it both ways. (Actually that was what is both intriguing and frustrating about this past Season, you can literally argue every character both ways: postive and negative or in between. Makes for some emotional debates on the boards.)
But I've felt that they've always written Riley oddly. As if they don't really know what to do with him...part of that problem occurred when Lindsey Crouse who plays Walsh left the show much earlier than they'd expected. They had planned a whole "Oedipal"/"Hamletish"
story arc with Prof Walsh manipulating Riley and Buffy and
jealously and that was the reason behind Walsh watching them on the monitors. (This was according to an interview with MN). Fortunately or Unfortunately depending on your preference, they couldn't do it and had to dump the whole thing. I sort of wish they had...it would have fleshed Riley and Walsh out a bit more. (I loved Walsh, she was one of my favorite villains, much better than Adam). Of the characters I've always felt Riley was the most underdeveloped. When he started getting interesting? They wrote him out. Oh well.
[> [> [> [> Writing characters in and out... -- ZachsMind, 14:01:05 06/25/02 Tue
It is a bit of a conundrum. When reviewing the overall plot arc of the series, there are times when it's difficult to determine why Whedon & the writers do what they do, but much of it probably has to do with juggling the times of availability for the actors. Seth Green reportedly displeased Whedon. Opting to put his interests in film over his work on Buffy. So Whedon wrote the werewolf out of the storyline. Would have been interesting to see what Whedon's original plans were for the werewolf, but it just wasn't in the cards. It's difficult to tell if Whedon chose to write Joyce out of the story or if Kristine Sutherland got tired of being written in occasionally with dialogue that made her more of a paper cut out for a mom than the real thing, and left to find a project which offered her more of a challenge. Giles' disappearance in Buffy's life last season was done in large part due to ASH's desires to spend more time in England with his family, and the eventual plans to have a BBC series based on Ripper is again to keep ASH on the other side of the Atlantic.
Oddly, in many cases this helps to make the Buffy stories more interesting, but must be no end of frustration for Whedon & the other writers. And most recently the rumors that with SMG's contract coming up at the end of season seven brings about their greatest potential juggling dillemma. They may have to work around her exit without too much collateral damage.
[> [> [> [> [> Joyce -- Off-kilter, 05:59:56 06/26/02 Wed
Read an interview of Kristine Sutherland where she states that she was discussing stepping away from BtVS and her plan to be out of country most of season 5 when Joss emphatically tells her that he HAS to have her for at least one episode, "I need you to die; it's REALLY important!"
[> [> Re: Perfect Solider Parts 3& 4 : Kendra, Sam, Buffbot, Warrenbot(spoilers to grave) -- leslie, 11:55:01 06/25/02 Tue
Two things strike me: the first, which I think I've mentioned before, is that it is interesting that Riley's chip is in his heart and Spike's chip is in his head. Someone recently suggested that Riley's relationship with Buffy was actually "planted" by Dr. Walsh's comment that she liked Buffy (previously he was more interested in--or at least aware of--Willow). Without Dr. Walsh around, their relationship eventually goes haywire, *because* Riley cannot reconcile his intellectual perception of how the world is supposed to work with his emotions for Buffy. Spike, in contrast, is forced by his chip to rethink his conception of the world and his place in it, but his heart is still free, if somewhat wonky in its affections. Not sure exactly where this goes....
Switching to Willow, however, I do have some ideas where this goes, although it doesn't seem to be where ME thinks it goes.... You point out Willow's movement from technology (computers) to magic and back again (after the whole magic-as-drug plot). We've focussed a lot on both of these as compensatory measures for her feelings of inadequacy. However, let's think about this in terms of the contrast between the Scoobies and the Initiative. That whole season basically boiled down to a moral of mystical/ magical/ traditional/ female/ organic defenses against evil = good/ effective; scientific/ technological/ governmental/ military/ modern/ male defenses against evil = bad/ monsterous. (Yet, in a nice yin/yang comparison, the "female" brigade is advised by a male--Giles--and the "male" brigade is advised by a female--Dr. Walsh.) Willow's use of magic therefore puts her on the side of "organic" (i.e., good, useful, effective) defenses against evil, whereas the use of computers--even if she considers this the slow, hard way--is on the side of technology and modernism--mental perspectives that are time and again shown to completely miss the point and the mode of functioning of the supernatural world. Computers are useful for acquiring information about the now, but you need Giles's library of BOOKS in order to get the real information that is needed to fight demons.
So this is what worries me about the whole damned magic-as-addiction metaphor--it puts Willow back in the thrall of technology, while BtVS has consistently backed the organic as the functional way to operate in the supernatural world. It's going to take some sharp writing to get around this.
[> [> [> Ooh! Primeval compare/contrast Buffy vs Adam -- ZachsMind, 12:43:17 06/25/02 Tue
I hadn't looked at it that way, but Leslie's comments about Riley and Spike made me realize something. The chip is in Spike's head and was in Riley's heart. If we were to take the 'blueprint' of the Scoobies' enjoining spell and try to apply it to Adam's plans, we see where he failed. In the enjoining spell that combined Giles, Xander & Willow with Buffy's psyche to combat and defeat Adam, Giles was the mind, Xander was the heart, Willow was the spirit and Buffy was the "Manus" or "Hand" and effectively represented the body.
Riley was Adam's heart, and Riley's heart just wasn't in it despite Adam's attempts to control his body. The flesh was conditioned but Riley's heart & spirit were "weak" to Adam's desires and strong to resist. So Adam had no real heart for his equivalent of the enjoining spell: the final phase of the 314 Project.
Spike was effectively the equivalent of Giles: the mind. Spike's plan was to use the Yoko Factor to split up the Scoobies, and the plan backfired when Spike had to attempt to influence Buffy into talking to Willow long enough to get the plans to the Initiative. When Spike talked to Buffy, he inadvertently slipped that he was truly the one to blame for the Scoobies' recent argument. Buffy used this to bring her gang back together. So Adam's "mind" in his metaphorical enjoining spell was also faulty. Adam's metaphorical "spirit" equivalent was Professor Walsh. Though he killed her, the remnants of her plans were still alive and Adam thought that was all he needed. That he could pick up where she left off. However, her spirit was gone, so there too Adam was left empty.
Adam was the body, the "Manus" confronting Buffy, and if it was just his body opposite Buffy's body he would have prevailed. He thought that was all he really needed. That he could finish Walsh's plans himself. However, he was to egocentric, believing he could take on all the world by himself. When he and Buffy were battling and Buffy became the uberSlayer, all he could say was, "this is interesting" and it was like the little red light in his brain started blinking and he started going haywire, because it did not compute. How could this little girl defeat him?
Spiritus (Spirit) Willow - Walsh
Animus (Heart) Xander - Riley
Sophus (Mind) Giles - Spike
Manus (Hands) Buffy - Adam
When you look at it this way, how could she lose?
[> [> [> [> Re: Ooh! Primeval compare/contrast Buffy vs Adam -- leslie, 13:54:23 06/25/02 Tue
"Spiritus (Spirit) Willow - Walsh
Animus (Heart) Xander - Riley
Sophus (Mind) Giles - Spike
Manus (Hands) Buffy - Adam"
Nice how this also echoes the suggestion of Spike as Giles's "son" and Xander's hero-worship of Riley; on a smaller level, I may just be making an assumption, but isn't Willow's mother a psychologist? Like Walsh? And of course, the opposition of hero Buffy and villain Adam. However, Buffy defeats the villain when she and her friends unite in a mystical whole--greater than the sum of its parts--whereas Adam can only remain a fragmented compilation of bits and pieces stitched together. Buffy can reach in and simply take out one crucial part; Adam cannot penetrate the barrier than surrounds her *at a discernable difference from her body boundaries*, extending her physical presence into an impenetrable whole.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Ooh! Primeval compare/contrast Buffy vs Adam -- shadowkat, 19:08:56 06/25/02 Tue
"on a smaller level, I may just be making an assumption, but isn't Willow's mother a psychologist? Like Walsh?"
Yep, you're correct. We learn her mother is a psychologist
in Gingerbread.
Great connections, thought the same - Spike/Giles being the brain continues the writers parallel of the two characters.
Just as X/R is very appropriate. Makes As You Were and
all the marriage conversation between Xander and Riley
and Xander and Riley regarding Riley even more interesting.
Anya: If you like Riley so much Xander, why don't you marry him?
And of course Spike's comment to Giles in his Restless
Dream: "you need to make a decision Rupes, use your frontal lobe".
Yet another essay topic in the making.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ooh! yes! -- aliera, singing...here we go again..., 19:58:32 06/25/02 Tue
Just teasing 'kat...thank goodness for all the essays and the posts...preserving semblance of sanity during reruns!
[> [> [> The Writers' Solution to Willow (Spoilers) -- Exegy, 15:29:18 06/25/02 Tue
I think that our Willow will try to deny the powers that she's tapped. She'll want to return to that "innocent" techno-nerd ... but she will be unable. She'll have to accept the magicks as a part of her, the good and the bad ... just as she has to accept the good and the bad about herself in general. She needs to find a balance between these dark and light aspects. I'm reminded of the imagery of Dopplegangland, where Willow seeks balance but loses control of her focus, upset by external events. This is what has happened in the sixth season. She loses control because she's never had control in the first place. She's never achieved balance. And this is why you get the polar extremes of Sweet!Willow and Evil!Willow. She's either one or the other, because she hasn't incorporated the various aspects of herself into a whole person. She exists fragmented, cut off from herself by herself.
It's easy for Willow to embrace the darkness within. She taps into hidden powers, and the liberation is immense. And destructive. There's real ugliness inside, ugliness that when amplified becomes truly monstrous. So Willow confronts and assimilates the image of herself that she saw in Dopplegangland. But she hasn't reconciled herself to these dark powers ... they are energies that she wields, not a part of her. "Willow doesn't live here anymore." To split herself off from her actions is to miss the truth of all that buried resentment and self-loathing. These are things which must be brought to the surface in order for Willow to become a realized individual. She cannot exist in a fragmented state any longer ... for that way leads to self-annihilation.
Willow embraces her evil self in Dopplegangland, but then she turns that self away. That's not her. She doesn't have the potential to be that. Not sweet, innocent Willow. So Willow denies herself ... but a part of her recognizes the self in VampWillow. This is what she could be, but for the grace of not being vamped. So the dark Willow lives on in another reality, far far away from the real girl. And she dies. So everything's safe. But this is not the case. Dopplegangland shows us an inner potentiality that still exists for Willow, and the more she buries it, the more she risks total negation of self.
Now that her darkness has been realized, she must accept herself for what she is and for what she is capable of. She can't just throw this unpleasantness away, to pretend that this could never happen again. She can't pretend to be completely innocent ever again. That is not her. It never was her ... just a fragment of herself that she showed to the world. The ugliness was always underneath, growing because no one ever attended to it. Everyone, not just Giles, was blind. Willow most of all. She could never see herself; she could only measure herself by others. She became a non-entity, an invisible girl who screamed to be let out. One who bursts out in the final episodes of this year.
Willow needs to gather the damaged pieces and put herself together. For once, she needs to come together, the light and the dark. She can't just neglect the unwanted aspects, because they are not going to go away if she only refuses to see them. Everyone has seen the ugliness now; everyone knows.
Willow's fear has come true. She's been exposed. That costume she's worn for all these years has been stripped away. The real girl, the one whose name she's never known, has come forth to rage. And now that the others know ... there shall be punishment.
Except maybe the punishment she's always feared will not materialize. I don't think the Scoobies are going to easily forgive Willow, or pretend like her horrible transformation never happened ... but I don't think they'll condemn her. I think they will try to help her heal herself. And I think that Giles will be of especial importance. As a mentor to all the Scoobs, he's somewhat responsible for their welfare. But he's been blind to Willow's problems, believing her outward facade. He hasn't seen the inner resentment. He hasn't wanted to see it. Yet in the end he must. He returns to Sunnydale, and he returns with his glasses removed, blind no longer.
Now the ugliness must be dealt with, fully confronted and incorporated into the larger person. It'll be a difficult process, and one that can never really end. Every time Willow envokes magick, she'll be reminded of her transgressions ... and she'll be reminded of the need to use her power responsibly. It's not the magick itself that is bad ... it's how one uses or abuses the magick. Power can be a wonderful thing, if it's handled wisely. And only a whole person can handle it wisely.
I think that Giles and the Devon Coven will help Willow to find her balance. They will help her bring herself together, enable her to find a control of her magick (herself) where there was none. This is what I believe will happen in England ... and must continue to happen for as long as Willow lives. Trying to find balance, with magick symbolizing the inner forces that must be reconciled ...
and cannot be denied.
Glad to add my $.02 to the great subthread featuring leslie and ZachsMind! Wonderful posts, you guys!
[> [> [> [> What Giles Could See / Backing Willow's Play... -- ZachsMind, 17:05:31 06/25/02 Tue
Great approach to Willow! I do reluctantly disagree with one point but I enjoyed the read.
I personally believe that of all the Scoobies, Giles was almost the least blind to Willow's dark path, second only to Tara. Back in the episode "Restless" the personification of Tara in Willow's mind said, "they will find out you know. About you." That wasn't a reference to her homosexuality because everyone already knew. It wasn't a reference to how WiccaWillow is really CrayonBreakyWillow in disguise, because as Buffy illustrated later in the same dream, everyone already knew. The personification of Tara in Willow's dream already knew Willow's potential. That she had the potential to call upon gods & goddesses and invoke powers that would threaten to topple everything. The poem that Willow was painting on Tara's back in that scene echoes this. It's a greek poem written by Sappho called "Deathless Aphrodite on your lavish throne" and is a subtle obscure reference to the inevitable direction of the relationship between Tara & Willow.
Yes. I believe Joss Whedon knew he was eventually going to kill off Tara two years before he did. In Willow's dream, even she and Tara knew it, but hid it from themselves in the form of a greek poem. Tara's never been blind to the potential demon in Willow. How ironic that in "Family" Tara feared Willow would discover the potential demon in Tara, only to discover there was never any demon there.
Giles has known about the potential darkness in Willow much longer however, but not quite as deeply as Tara. He cautioned and warned Willow about her frivolous exploration of dark magic since as far back as the third season of the series. From "Faith Hope and Trick" Giles said, "These forces are not something that one plays around with, Willow. What have you been conjuring?"
The problem with Giles is not in his sight, but in his ability to react to what he sees. He is a father figure of sorts. On at least two occasions I can recall he's even been referred to (or referred to himself) as the patriarch of the gang. In the fourth season Thanksgiving episode Buffy called him the patriarch of the group which was her excuse for having Thanksgiving dinner at his place. In the fifth season episode where Buffy moved out of the college dorm to be with her mother more, Giles referred to himself as the patriarch to excuse himself from working too hard moving her stuff. He saw himself more in a supervisory role, pointing and scowling here and there. Though he was joking, in a sense this is his place with the Scoobies overall.
He may be their father figure, but he has no actual power beyond pointing and scowling. He admonished Willow in an early sixth season episode for her blatant disregard to the laws of nature when bringing Buffy back from the dead. However, Willow's response to his displeasure was to threaten him, in a way that gave us a glimpse of the dark Willow she was to become. On many occasions even Xander has reacted to Giles' words harshly. "You're not the boss of me," and "You're not my watcher" are phrases which have passed his lips on occasion. Perhaps the real reason Giles wants to leave is because the Scoobies appreciate his intellect and wisdom, but have effectively made him a powerless father figure, like a queen mother who can voice displeasure but can't actually do anything about it. Giles is for all intents and purposes impotent, as unable to affect punishment as Spike is unable to inflict pain. In the fourth season episode "A New Man" Professor Walsh stuck a tender nerve when she questioned Giles' effectiveness as the patriarch:
Walsh: ...[Buffy's] bright. All she's really been lacking is encouragement in the academic sect.
Giles: Oh, uh, I think it's best if-if we let a young person find their own strengths. If you lead a child by the hand then they'll never find their own footing.
Walsh: And if it's true about hiking, ergo, it must be true about life.
Giles: That's not, uh... I'm just saying Buffy is, uh, well she's not the typical student. Once you get to know her, she's a very unique girl. I hope you're not going to push her.
Walsh: I think I do know her. And I have found her to be a unique woman.
Giles: "Woman." Of course. How wrong of me to choose my own words.
Walsh: She's very self-reliant, very independent--
Giles: Exactly!
Walsh: --which is not always a good thing. I think it can be unhealthy to take on adult roles too early. What I suspect I'm seeing is a reaction to the absence of a
male role model.
Giles: Absence?
Walsh: Buffy clearly lacks a strong father figure.
Giles is struck dumb by this, and we later learn that this conversation causes Giles to decide he just simply hates Professor Walsh, but he was unable to dismiss her intuitive assessment of Buffy's relationship with him. In fact this scene can be viewed as the initial seed in Giles' brain, that causes him to begin the weening process, effectively removing him from their lives as that parental figure. He doesn't believe he's done Buffy or the others justice.
But he saw Willow's potential for evil long before anyone else did or could. He simply could do nothing to prevent it. Upon his return in the six season finale when he explains to Buffy in exposition how he's been written back into the story, he pointed out what the coven in Devonshire told him, and when he learned there was a powerful force in Sunnydale filled with vengeance and grief, he hoped it wouldn't be Willow but hers was the first face that came to mind. Then he learned of Tara's death and knew it could be no one but Willow. He's feared this day, but knew it was coming and did not shirk from it. Rather he arrived immediately with the coven's powers within him, so he could finally exact the punishment that perhaps he should have done long before now.
What Giles should have done years before was take Willow under his wing. He did this to some extent but rather than focus on teaching her how to use the proper magic in the proper way, he opted instead to caution her impotently with words, and attempt to hide certain books from Willow in his office. Books that she eventually found access to anyway, simply without his blessing. He attempted some surruptitious manipulation but had no ability to influence her directly. First, because his true responsibility was to his Slayer and not the cattle that followed her around. Secondly, because he knew his influence would not be welcomed by Willow, who wanted to go her own way. This goes back to Giles' belief that "If you lead a child by the hand then they'll never find their own footing." Perhaps Professor Walsh was right after all. What works in hiking doesn't work in life. Sometimes a father figure needs to lead those under his care by the hand, or pull the yoke so to speak. Had Giles been able to be more strict and forceful with Willow, she may never have turned dark. Again though, Giles was powerless to do more than he had done. He's not her real father.
He should be though. In fact he could be. He's so much like Willow it's frightening. Compare the story of young Ripper to what Willow's going through now. We have learned that Giles' past is a vague reflection of the road Willow walks. Giles used to be like her. Studious but rebellious. A foolish young person who toyed with dark magic because it was cool and alluring, but accidently releasing a demon (Eyeghon) upon himself and friends, which led to the loss of a friend's life. Willow's path is very similar. Though Warren killed Tara, her loss led Willow on a rampage of dark magic. Willow's also been courted by Anya's ex-demon employer. Willow has practically turned herself into a demon. So she and Giles have much more in common than it appears to be on the surface.
We've been led to believe that ASH & AH are to be shooting second unit footage in England this summer, which means the first episode or two of season seven may involve Giles & Willow working together in some way in England, probably to attempt to release the final remnants of evil magic from her. How is unknown, but my prediction is that it will be a difficult procedure but will lead Willow to become relatively what she was before. Just that she'll have this dark blemish in her past that will taint her and affect her future, but hopefully she will have matured and grown from it.
Or perhaps the opposite will happen. We know that some time in Giles' past he stopped being the rebellious Ripper and became more like the studious but stiff man we see, with occasional glimpses of this dangerous Ripper personality. Perhaps Willow will become a more dark and rebellious young adult, with only occasional glimpses of the playful and distracted youth that we've known since season one. It depends much on both the writers and AH herself - how will she portray Willow now that she's felt the demon within? Will she embrace it like young Ripper, or try to hide it like the elder Giles?
Some characters will have difficulty forgiving Willow. Dawn & Anya particularly. Others will welcome her with open arms because though she said and did mean things (which many fans believe she should suffer greatly for) she's still their Willow, and they'd love her no matter what. Whatever she decides, they hope to back her play. I recall this exchange between Buffy, Oz & Willow in the fourth season episode "Fear Itself."
Willow: I've got the basics down - levitation, charms, glamours. I just feel like I've plateaued wicca-wise.
Buffy: What's the next level?
Willow: Transmutation, conjuring, bringing forth something from nothing. Gets pretty close to the primal forces. A little scary.
Buffy: Well, no one's pushing. You know, if it's too much don't do it.
Willow: Don't do it? What kind of encouragement is *that*?
Buffy: This is an 'encouragement' talk? I thought it was 'share my pain'.
Willow: I don't know. Then again, what is college for if not experimenting? You know, maybe I can handle it. I'll know when I've reached my limit.
Oz comes up to them: Wine coolers?
Buffy: Magic.
Oz: Ooh, you didn't encourage her, did you?
Willow: Where is supportive boyfriend guy?
Oz: He's picking up your dry cleaning, but he told me to tell you that he's afraid you're gonna get hurt.
Willow: Okay, Brutus. (Oz just looks at her) Brutus - Caesar? Betrayal - trusted friend? (Makes stabbing motions with her banana) Back stabby?
Oz: Oh, I'm with you on the reference, but - I won't lie about the fact that I worry? I know what it's like to have power you can't control. I mean, every time I start to wolf out, I touch something deep dark. It's not fun. But just know that what ever you decide, I back your play.
Buffy: See? Concerned boy, sweet boy.
Willow: I kinda like him - worrying anyway.
That's unconditional love. Be concerned, but regardless of the decision a true friend will love you no matter what. Even if and especially after you learn you've screwed up. Oz's sentiments are echoed in Xander's "yellow crayon" speech. If the world's going to end, at the hands of his best friend, and there's nothing he can do about it, where else does Xander want to be at the end of the world but standing next to his best friend? Where's he stood so many times before when they faced the end of the world together? To Xander, it made perfect sense. He loves Willow on levels his brain can't fathom. Not in a sexual or romantic kinda way, at least not anymore, but in a way that mere words can't properly express, but actions do. They're not gonna forgive Willow because she deserves it. She doesn't. They're gonna forgive Willow because she's Willow. Some fans won't appreciate that. I will. In fact I'm looking forward to it. =)
[besides Warren & Rack were both jerks and deserve what they got. *smirk*]
[> [> [> [> [> Wow, impressive reply! Glad I provoked it. And a fine distinction ... -- Exegy, 08:24:25 06/26/02 Wed
Isn't there a difference between knowing someone's potential for evil and actually seeing this potential actualized? This is what I mean by Giles' blindness. He knows about Willow's latent darkness, but he never actually sees it manifesting. Not in sweet, innocent Willow. He willfully blinds himself to the possibility he knows exists. Hey, it happens. My parents refused to see the signs of anorexia until they were so painfully obvious that everyone knew. Sometimes it's the ones who are closest to you who cannot "see" you at all.
Giles' closeness to Willow actually makes it more difficult to treat her situation. He cannot view it objectively and rationally. So in Flooded, he remarks that of all the Scoobies, he trusts her most to respect magick. Now, any objective viewer can see that this trust is unfounded, but Giles is just too tangled in the affairs of his charges ... he simply cannot separate himself from them far enough to see them. He cannot bring his experience or "frontal lobe" (the seat of rational judgment) into play.
I'm reminded of Giles' segment in Restless. He looks upon the First Slayer in Buffy, and he knows her. But he cannot sort through the twisted wires of his brain. How could the First Slayer be in Buffy? He only realizes the answer when he follows his convoluted thoughts into the deep recesses of his mind ... and he finds the watch, the symbol of his station. Watchers have controlled their Slayers for so long ... this is how the relationship's always been. But the First Slayer ... she never had a Watcher. She was something else, something raw and primal. Giles may try to govern her with his intellect, but that is not the answer. You can't reason with the primal source of the Slayer; you can't reason with a Willow gone off the deep end. But you can at least see them for what they truly are ... where you've kept the awareness in the back of your mind, hoping you'll never need to see.
I think that Tara's also been somewhat blinded to Willow, even though she knows and fears the possibility of her lover abusing magick. The implication is that Tara has had prior experience with magick abuse, perhaps with her mother. She knows the signs ... but she doesn't want to see them. She loves Willow so much, and her love blinds her to what should be obvious. This is what the spell of OMWF signifies. It's more than just Willow taking advantage of Tara; it's also Tara, however briefly, allowing herself to be used. Because she's blinded herself to the possibility of Willow going this route. Yes, Will may abuse magick, but she'd never abuse Tara.
When the spell breaks, Tara sees what she should have seen all along ... and what Willow still cannot see about herself. "Oh Willow, don't you see / there'll be nothing left of me." This is what Tara has gotten into ... what she only truly realizes with the benefit of hindsight. She gives her lover one more chance, and when Willow still can't see, she leaves, knowing that this is the only way she can save herself and perhaps the relationship. She separates herself, gaining that needed distance to view the situation somewhat objectively. She gains a lot more confidence and maturity as a result. But she cannot be completely cut off from Willow; the "spell" of their love remains, binding them. So Tara relents and returns, undoubtedly sooner than she should have ... and the dress of OMWF marks their reunion. Trust needs to be rebuilt ... after much kissing. Emotion governs reason. This approach still ignores the main issues, with only the symptoms of magick "addiction" being addressed.
Giles and Tara may know, but do they really see? I don't think so ... otherwise they would never have let the situation get out of control in the first place. It's more than just not being able to do anything ... it's not truly recognizing the need to do anything, until it is nearly too late. Because you haven't really seen the invisible girl screaming until she makes herself painfully evident. You can't see until she manifests. It's as simple as that ... and why Willow had to go off the deep end if her root problems were ever to be really addressed.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wow, impressive reply! Glad I provoked it. And a fine distinction ... -- leslie, 09:26:52 06/26/02 Wed
I haven't had enough caffeine yet to tell whether I am adding something or merely restating what has already been said, in different words....
The parallels between Giles/Ripper and Good/EvilWillow are clear. However, I don't know how much we, the audience, really understand about how Giles felt about being Ripper--he certainly regrets the results of his actions now, he sees that part of his past as necessarily rebellious and I think understands that his past experiences may be part of what makes him the right Watcher for Buffy, an equally idiosyncratic Slayer. But he at least *claims* that his youthful dabbling in magic was innocent, that he and his friends didn't realize the danger of what they were doing until it was too late and someone was dead, and that all they were in it for was the "high."
What Giles seems blind to is that Willow may actually like experiencing the dark power, knowing its darkness. He keeps telling her that what she is doing is dangerous and she doesn't know what she's getting into; she keeps insisting that she does know what she's getting into and she can handle it. I think we have to actually take her at her word there. She does know--she is not innocently playing with power she doesn't understand, she's seeking to control a power within herself that she may not consciously acknowledge but that she secretly knows she really, really wants. I think that this is where Giles goes astray in his interpretation of Willow's actions--he thinks that if she knew that she could (in)advertantly end the world, she would stop at once, but in fact, she is the kind of person who, in despair, does indeed want deliberately to end the world, and even when not in despair gains a feeling of security in knowing that she has that kind of power.
My question is, does Giles not see this in Willow because it is *not* in himself--i.e., he sees her as completely like he was as a youth, but is wrong--or does he miss it because it is a part of himself that he *still* cannot accept--i.e., he *was* dabbling in magic for power, was scared off it by the Eyeghon incident, and now cannot bring himself to admit that he was radically culpable in those deaths; that he is, in fact, much closer to Ethan--and Evil Willow--than he can bring himself to acknowledge?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think Giles' mistakes came from how he sees Willow... -- cjl, 09:49:54 06/26/02 Wed
In Doppelgangland, when the gang thought Willow had been turned, there was general agreement among Buffy, Willow, and Xander that Willow was "the best of us." Giles saw Willow's courage, her determination, her spirit, and he couldn't believe there was something like Ripper underneath the facade. He knew what he was at 16--the dark rage, the hatred of his own destiny as a Watcher--and when he looked at Willow, he just knew she wasn't the same type of person. She was an innocent child, an infant playing with grown up weapons, an amateur--and once she was consciously aware of the danger, she'd wise up.
Of course, he was wrong.
I don't think Giles has any illusions about his Ripper days. He's integrated the dark aspects of his youth into his adult personality, and he can be utterly ruthless when the occasion calls for it (killing Ben and torturing Glory's minion). But he doesn't especially like to be reminded of them, either. He was nothing short of brutal when dealing with Ethan in "Halloween," and when Eyghon resurfaced in Sunnydale, Giles completely fell apart emotionally. Part of him knows how far he fell down the rabbit hole, and he gets vertigo whenever somebody forces him to look down...
[> [> The Robot and External Locus of Control -- Exegy, 12:13:54 06/25/02 Tue
First, thank you for the fantastic follow-up, 'kat. I love the comparison of Spike and Riley, comments on the Initiative, and allusion to The Wizard of Oz. And you provide a nice, tight summary of my posts on AYW. I'll just expand a little bit on the robot metaphor and how it relates to the issue of control.
It seems to me that the robot operates according to an external locus of control. This means that the automaton is governed from without rather than from within. Its instructions have been imposed upon it. So David has no choice in loving his mother; he has been directed to do so for as long as he exists. Similarly, Riley has a hard time breaking from Professor Walsh, his mother. The psychological conditioning and drug-programming she has fed him ... these methods have stripped him of his personal initiative, leaving only The Initiative to provide him with directives. Riley's not a person here ... he's a perfect soldier, a cog in the greater machine.
But he becomes an anarchist. He breaks from the image of the mother and her outside governance; he follows his internalized love of Buffy, that which has kept him intact while his former ideals were painfully stripped away. So he replaces one set of ideals with another of his own accord, and he briefly triumphs. He emerges from external control; he removes the chip that has obscured his own heart, the chip that has been dominating him for so long. His love shines forth in this apparently impossible act, proving that internal drive is more powerful than any outer directives.
Just as Buffy proves that the source of her power is so much greater than any nuclear center. She runs on primal energy, forces that come from within. This is something utterly incomprehensible to Adam. After all, his power source is right here, visible and tangible. Something that was given to him from without, the "heart" that links him to the family Walsh has created. This "heart" can be seized and destroyed, for true initiative comes from within ... and cannot be pulled out.
Unless you turn away from it, as Riley does. For he is still trapped by his former holding pattern. He can never quite escape the robotic conditioning he has been subjected to ... because he doesn't really want to escape. He still wants to be that "perfect" man ... he's just moved from the mother to the lover. But Buffy cannot be satisfied by this limited ideal; Riley's solid and dependable, the normal boyfriend she feels she should want ... but doesn't. Because he's still so much of the robot, placing the control outside of himself. He hasn't really come into her world; he can't accept the possibility of disorder, for then the external chaos should dominate him internally. He needs that perfect world, that orderly (and limited) existence that can provide comfort. He tries to make it for himself. Riley's pursuit of the vamp in FFL is all about his attempt to grasp a control that is not there for him. He's trying to be the "perfect" man for Buffy, so that he can feel needed ... but he's not giving her what she needs. He doesn't know how. And so he leaves, seeking that fulfillment he can't find with Buffy in the Initiative. He returns to the world where he was needed. He becomes just another cog yet again, a part of the machine more than a human. And he finds the lover he wants, the "perfect" missionary who shares his limited ideals. He progresses from Walsh to Buffy ... and then he regresses to Stepford Sam. He's now got that Mission he's always desired, that sense of purpose he needs ... provided for him from without. What a dependable framework. No need for painful autonomy.
Buffy sees this as an ideal throughout much of season six. She places herself in the role of the robot. She buries her emotions and just drifts, as blank as any empty machinery. She's not really running herself; she's letting outside forces determine her course. It's the external locus of control all over again. Buffy doesn't feel in control of herself, and so she's weakened and made incapable by being unable to tap her true power. She has no initiative, and she doesn't even have the dependable framework that Riley has. She's stuck in the trap her mind has set for her, and she doesn't fully emerge until the end of the season.
She accepts the pain and the joy, and so she opens herself to the world. She casts off her self-made limitations, and she shows herself.
Okay, I'm done for now. Thanks for reading!
[> [> Self-Mechanization in the Buffyverse: Surrendering Your Freedom of Choice -- cjl, 12:14:34 06/25/02 Tue
Another great essay, 'kat.
Let's face it, Joss had it nailed down in The Gift: "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it." Even the richest man, sheltered from the usual harshness of life of the "lower" classes, must eventually make painful decisions about his fate. (The history of the Rockerfellers and the Kennedys are filled with the agony of the privileged.) No wonder people--and not just in the Buffyverse--are tempted to surrender their freedom of choice for peace of mind. Life is so much more comfortable when you turn control of your life to someone else.
Riley and Sam have seen the complex world around them, know about the grey areas on both sides of the human/demon conflict and have happily chosen to lay their heads on the four-square cots of the U.S. Military. Riley was betrayed in heartless fashion by Prof. Walsh and her associates, but he couldn't handle the implications of that betrayal, and he reflexively reverted to his training. Follow the chain of command, eliminate the target, and fly out to the next mission. (Sam is much the same way, although I don't quite agree in your generalization of missionaries. I've known a few in my time, and they're well aware of the uncertain foundation of the missionary enterprise, and try to avoid the traps of teaching Western "cultural superiority.")
I can't lump Kendra in with Riley and Sam, because she was far too young to realize what she was surrendering to the Watchers. Trained from childhood, fitted with blinders by her adult tutors, she never had the opportunity to question the moral absolutism of her Slayerhood. If she'd somehow gotten past Drusilla, would the influence of the Scoobies and the presence of Angel in Season 3 have dissuaded her from the Watcher party line? Or would she have succeeded where Faith failed, and teamed up with Xander to eliminate Angel once and for all? (Ooh. Fanfic alert.)
As for the Buffybot, I've always seen her as an inside joke for Joss and ME. It's Buffy, complete with quips and playful sexuality, but without the angst and the party-pooping moral code. She's personable and friendly, she helps take care of Dawn, she kicks vampire butt and trains with Giles, all with that big, beautiful SoCal smile on her face. (Aw. SMG has such a beautiful smile. Why don't we see it more often?) But when Giles wants to discuss the relationship between training and the soul, Anya pointedly reminds him that he's talking to a mechanical being. The real Buffy may be a contrary pain-in-the-butt sometimes, but it's that very quality that allows her to explore new ideas, new ways of thinking.
[On the other hand, maybe Giles gave up on the Buffbot a little too easily. If the Aprilbot could question her programming, why not another of Warren's creations? Sometimes all a person--or robot needs is a little encouragement.]
This thread is chillingly relevant to our times--but it's probably always relevant. How much of our freedom of choice do we want to give up to our institutions? It is a frightening world out there, but are we any safer when we bury our heads in the sand? Sometimes, it just means you can't see when the next big hit is comin'....
[> [> [> Re: Self-Mechanization in the Buffyverse: Surrendering Your Freedom of Choice -- Sulis, 12:48:16 06/25/02 Tue
Loving this thread, great food for thought from everyone!
Was Sam a missionary? I haven't rewatched AYW but I thought she was in the Peace Corps. If I'm right, then Exegy's comments about missionaries become even more relevant. After all the Peace Corps is a government institution that, while it does help people, also has the implicit goal of teaching the superiority of Western Culture.
[> [> Lovely, shadowkat...as ever! -- aliera, 15:33:26 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> Indeed. Wow. Wonderful Post. -- Jane's Addiction, 21:50:26 06/25/02 Tue
Were I not too brain fried from multiple meetings to form a coherent thought (Does "Fire bad. Tree pretty." count?), I would love to respond to this.
Far too much brilliance on this darned board;)
[> [> Check. One mindless automaton coming up. -- Off-kilter -the perfect Sailor, 05:46:33 06/26/02 Wed
Who gets seasick if whitecaps appear! 'kat, wonderful post, and not just because you mentioned me! ;-)
Can't think coherently right now, so I'll sleep on it and try again later.
[> [> Doing the robot dance! -- ponygirl, 07:04:29 06/26/02 Wed
Really who needs new episodes to discuss when there are great essays such as these? And of course many thanks for the quotage 'kat! Definitely a big happy to brighten my workday. I really enjoyed your look at robot metaphors on the show especially the final couple paragraphs. I never considered what would have happened if Willow had found Warren on the bus instead of the 'bot. She was obviously quite determined to kill him, but she brought along Buffy and Xander. As witnesses? Or because at that point she actually wanted to be talked down?
And your final paragraph leads into an even larger theme on BtVS, that of order vs. chaos! Wishing you many more essays shadowkat!
[> Great essay and a question -- Kerri, 11:41:16 06/25/02 Tue
Excellent post again, shadowkat. Could you do me a favor and post the address of your site, I'd like to go and read some of your other essays. Thanks a lot.
[> [> See the Links at the top of the board or... -- shadowkat, 12:40:21 06/25/02 Tue
MAsq has a link to my site in Meet The Posters section
of Links. You get there by hitting Links at top of board.
my page is I think: www.geocities.com/shadowkatbtvs
Robot Metaphors Part I and II is in the archives
right now and won't be on my site for a little while.
I hope to send it to my website designer sometime
this week.
Thanks for the support! ; -)
[> Thanks guys - will respond later...leaving work now! -- shadowkat, 13:10:18 06/25/02 Tue
Great posts from leslie, ZachsMind, cjl, Sulis, Exegy...
keep the thread alive and I'll respond when I read and get
home or tomorrow at latest!
Very happy with responses so far...doing snoopy dance.
(yep got ambitious - tried to condense a 40 page essay
into ten pages, LOL!)
[> Robots: What do we really want? -- LeeAnn, 14:03:55 06/25/02 Tue
What do we really want?
If we could create a creature, robot or organic, what would we make?
I don't think it would be a Frankenstein's monster, not on purpose anyway. The monster wasn't supposed to be a robot. He was more in the nature of an experiment that went wrong. Adam was supposed to be a robot, a robot in the sense that Maggie Walsh expected to control him, not the other way around, but like Frankenstein's monster, he too was an experiment. A work in progress.
The Aprilbot was designed to be a pretend person. She was made to love Warren. To be his perfect girlfriend. To resist the approaches of other men, even violently. To never cry because Warren felt crying was emotional blackmail. To love, admire and obey him. To have sex with him.
The Buffybot was much the same and made for the same reason, to be the perfect surrogate girlfriend but, given her ersatz Slayer nature, she was useful in fighting Glory, vampires and demons. But even before Glory broke her the first time, the Buffybot was already beginning to bore and embarrass Spike. She wasn't Buffy and he seemed to be finding it harder and harder to pretend that she was. The bot was predictable and Buffy wasn't.
I haven't see AI but from the descriptions it seems that David was really designed to be an emotional crutch for Monica. Like April and the Buffybot, he was made to love. That was his primary function.
What are real robots really for? At this point they are divided into two groups. Tools and toys. By far the larger groups is tools. Millions of robots work in manufacturing, most of them repeating the same actions over and over and over. Robotic toys are a much smaller group. Toys that interact with people are hard to design so, for the present, their behavior and interactions are pretty simple and quickly boring.
When we are able to design robots to our specifications what will we want? First let's look at robots in fiction. Robby the Robot. The perfect slave. Obedient, cheerful, strong, efficient. Then we have David of AI and his unconditional love. I think that once we can have exactly what we want, we will want a combination of those two traits. I think that because we already have designed a creature that fulfills those specifications, the four-legged fuzzies that sleep at our feet. Unlike other domesticated animals that we have had less time to shape, dogs have been with us for 40,000 years. Maybe much longer. During that time we have modified them to fit our desires and needs. We have done that by the simple expedient of killing or discarding individuals that did not suit us and by allowing those that did to breed. What have we wrought? Dogs have been used as guards, hunting companions, defenders, pack animals, draft animals, toys, friends, baby sitters, surrogate children and even food. They are our slaves. Willing slaves who often give us unconditional love no matter how we treat them. That is how they have been designed. They have no choice about it. They love us whether they will or no. That is our strongest chain on them. That is what we will want in a multipurpose robot because that is what we have engineered into dogs. And, perhaps not coincidentally, that is what Spike offers Buffy. He is Buffy's willing slave who gives her unconditional love whether he will or no. His nature or his chip? Or both. Maybe Maggie Welch designed better than we know. Maybe Maggie engineered him so he would become the perfect robot but he escaped before the transformation was complete.
Spike has been Buffy's defender, guard, hunting companion, babysitter, toy, and friend. He loves her unconditionally. He is willing to die to protect her life or even just to protect her from pain. She beats him and still he comes back. He has been her dog. And, in many ways, a perfect boyfriend. Except for the evil part I think that if Buffy were to design her perfect BF it would pretty much be Spike. Someone who would help her with the slaying but still defer to her, someone who would care for and protect Dawn, someone who would give her great sex, make no demands (or none that can't be ignored) and give her unconditional love. But once she had that from Spike, did Buffy, like Warren, start to get bored? Was it really the evil thing that drove Buffy away from Spike or the fact that his adoration was getting boring. He'd stopped challenging her and was reduced to being the kicked dog who always returns/the sexbot who can always get it up. Maybe it was only the fact that Spike still had some of the evil in him that kept him from becoming as boring as April and the Buffybot. April was the perfect Girlfriend for Warren. He could treat her the way Buffy treated Spike and she still loved him. Just as Spike, with the chip in his head and his doglike devotion, still loved Buffy.
[> [> Re: Robots: What do we really want? -- leslie, 14:39:09 06/25/02 Tue
I know, I know, I know--Spike is somehow supposed to be doglike. I just don't see it. I have always seen him as feline, and I just can't break the habit. (Do dogs try to lure you "into the dark"? I think not. Do cats? Do you have to even ask???)
But whether we find Spike feline or canine, I don't think that Buffy's problem with him is that she finds him boring, but that she finds him emotionally uncomfortable. Simply by existing, he forces her to face emotions and issues that she really wishes would just go away. If she were bored, she wouldn't sound so hysterical when she denies feeling anything for him, she wouldn't break down at confessing her sexual relationship with him to Tara, she just would shut him off, politely. Like whatsisname, Xander's coworker, in Older and Far Away.
[> [> [> Re: Robots: What do we really want? -- LeeAnn, 14:50:00 06/25/02 Tue
she just would shut him off, politely.
She did cut him down politely once she broke up with him. In As You Were and Normal Again and Seeing Red.
But I see your point.
I was trying to make the point that what we will probably want in a robot, a willing slave with unconditional love, is what Buffy was getting with Spike. But we also get that with dogs.
[> [> [> [> Underdog -- Arethusa, 20:23:30 06/25/02 Tue
Speed of lightning/ roar of thunder/fighting all who/rob or plunder/ Underdog! (Sorry-couldn't resist.)
Season 6 Buffy was a depressed Buffy, a sad and joyless Buffy, an incomplete Buffy. Normally, Buffy never wanted dog-like devotion. Did she treat Angel, Parker, or Riley like a "willing slave with unconditional love"? Did she ever demand obedience or unconditional love from anyone? Both Buffy and Spike behaved badly. Both were at fault. When Spike sang to Buffy "You know, you got a willing slave," she rolled her eyes and walked away. When Buffy let herself realize that she was abusing Spike's unconditional love, she broke up with him. Spike is dead. Let him Rest in Peace.
(ducking and covering now)
[> [> [> Have to agree with Leslie here -- shadowkat, 05:41:19 06/26/02 Wed
While I was doing the Robot Metaphors, particularly
the Buffbot/Aprilbot comparison in Parts I & II see
archives, it was tempting to mention Buffy using Spike
as a robot. And in a way she does - he's not real to her.
He's that bad boy, frigging handsome, sex machine that turns us on. And part of the reason why? He's so dangerous
and when you feel numb and are by nature a bit of an adrenaline junkie - that's a real turn on. A robot wouldn't have been. That said she does at times treat him as the
"willing slave" but part of that is due to Spike himself.
Their relationship is so complex that you can literally
and successfully argue it from three perspectives: Buffy
bad, Spike bad, both bad. The most valid is probably both.
I also don't see him so much as a dog - but as a cat,
feline. Cat's think you're the pet, that they are in control, except well you can decide whether or not to let them out. They are cunning and manipulative. Dogs...well
they seem a bit different in that respect. ;-)
[> Re: Robot Metaphors: Perfect Solider Parts I & II (spoilers to grave) -- Drizzt, 20:51:40 06/25/02 Tue
I loved your post:) I will read part 3 & 4, but first...
"Proffesor Walshes motivation is simple; she just wants to make the world a better place, and become God"
?!
LOL;)
Buffy-related fandom article on Pop Politics -- dream of the consortium, 10:32:11 06/25/02 Tue
http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2002-06-24-fandom.shtml
Don't know how to paste a link, but that's the address.
[> For the cutnpaste challenged. A public service -- ZachsMind, 10:53:03 06/25/02 Tue
Here's a clickable version of the same link. Just to be helpful. =)
I enjoy fanfiction to a point, when the intent is to remain sincere to the source material, but each fan has their own limits and levels of appreciation. The legalities are basically a matter of control. Lucasfilm is an ideal example. They want to encourage fandom, so long as fandom remains consumer oriented. There is also more leeway with Lucasfilm than most other corporations for the creative side, but ultimately the creators want to retain functional control of their own work. This is understandable, but also restrictive. There may simply be no straight answer. Good article overall.
[> [> boo consumerism. And on a lighter note... -- yuri, 01:25:09 06/26/02 Wed
That buffy present exchange sounded extremely fun. I'll supply the burned copies of OMWF!! (I even made pretty little covers for my friends out of screen captures. We all have our weaknesses... pish tosh, what am I calling weakness?!@?! The only thing I really haven't been able to get in to is fanfic- though I totally respect it - and buffy novels. But oh well.)
[> Now I pity the people... -- LeeAnn, 14:22:12 06/25/02 Tue
Now I pity the people who just watch a show and that's it.
I pity the people who just discuss a show with one or two friends.
I pity the people who don't come online and read about it further.
I pity the people who don't start writing about it.
I pity the people who don't start reading fan fiction. Or even writing fan fiction.
I pity the people who aren't BtVS fans.
They are missing the fun.
[> Article with all clickable links inside.......I like the practice..;) -- Rufus, 14:42:14 06/25/02 Tue
www.poppolitics.com
Consumers and Creators
A pop cult fan ponders where she crossed the line
by Alana Kumbier
Recently I've been wondering: When exactly did I become a fangurl?
Was it at the Multiple Alternative Realities Convention last month, when my friends and I found ourselves whispering answers to Buffy/Angel Jeopardy questions during a game session, or later that evening, when I was dressed up as Darth!Willow, dancing with a group of vampires for the evening, to a set dj'd by Dr. Demento?
Or was it last fall, when I obsessed about what to wear to see filmmaker Jim Jarmusch speak at our local contemporary arts center? Or last summer, when my drag king friends and I danced onstage at a club in New Orleans, lip-synching and busting boyband-style moves during a homoerotic performance of 'NSync's "Bye Bye Bye"?
I don't know when it happened exactly, just that it did, and now I've found myself, at 26, involved in more fandoms than I care to count.
In a recent New York Times article about potential copyright violation by Star Wars fans who digitally revise George Lucas' films, Jim Ward, Lucasfilm's vice president for marketing, offered his company's take on fandom: "We've been very clear all along on where we draw the line," he said. "We love our fans. We want them to have fun. But if in fact somebody is using our characters to create a story unto itself, that's not in the spirit of what we think fandom is about. Fandom is about celebrating the story the way it is."
Ward was referring to fan edits of Star Wars circulating online, and about which of these the company deems appropriate and which violate Lucasfilm's copyright. The sort of fan behavior Ward supports is the fandom of appreciation and consumption. It's a fandom that's pleasurable for many, one that's accessible if you can afford a movie ticket or CD or a cable hookup.
While this definition makes sense for Lucasfilm -- or for just about any large corporate production unit interested in selling its film, featured celebrity, band or television show and then protecting its interest by controlling use and distribution of the product -- it's a limiting interpretation for most of the popcult-obsessed fans I know.
The definition of fandom is a tricky one. If you regularly watch a particular TV show each week, does that make you a fan? Or is it more than that (taping the show, discussing it with others, re-viewing it, quoting dialogue, taking screencap photos to post on your Web site, which will then be the basis for others' bad fan art?) Is it standing in line for a ridiculous length of time to see a film's opening, or working with digital technology to create a version of the same film other fans may enjoy more?
It's my belief that fandom exists along a broad spectrum -- including, but not limited to, fans whose idea of participation is sitting back and enjoying a show's broadcast, to those who read spoilers and speculate a series' plots in online forums weeks in advance, or to those who put their creative energies to work writing fan fiction. These writings, which are based on a show/band/movie/etc. and introduce alternate storylines and/or character relations, are then posted online (or, if you're old-school, distributed via fanzines).
While I don't want to create a hierarchy of fan behavior by suggesting that it's better to be one sort of fan than another, I do believe that those on the further-out end of the fan spectrum are the most interesting, because while they're actively consuming popcult product, they're also creating it. Instead of solely behaving in the appropriate, good-Lucasfilm-fan-way (consuming, collecting, appreciating), these fans are putting their consumption to work, making their preferred cultural product meaningful in different contexts and mediums.
If being a bad, obsessive fan means learning how to use various technologies in new ways for your own ends, such as digitally editing videos and manipulating images in Photoshop, creating and maintaining fan Web sites, building virtual communities around shared interests, or exerting creative agency in any number of other ways, then there are millions of "bad fans," operating online and off -- and they're all the more informed and engaged because of it.
The cast of Buffy the Vampire Slayer/UPN
At present, I'm somewhere in the middle of the fandom-spectrum, operating as a purely appreciative consumer in some cases, and demonstrating a more rabid obsession in others. There are TV shows I sit and watch each week like a normal person (watching Bachelorettes in Alaska counts as research for a cultural critic!) … but then there's also Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Three years ago, I started watching the show, alone in my apartment, and didn't tell friends about my viewing. I was a cultural studies grad student curious about the representation of the show's young lesbian couple, Willow and Tara. I didn't realize I was a BTVS addict until the next fall, when I found myself living in New Orleans without cable TV, begging a Tulane University faculty member who I'd heard was doing scholarly work on the show to lend me her tapes of the episodes I'd missed during the first few weeks of the new season.
Then came the cable subscription I couldn't really afford on my salary. And then, a few months later, I was at Tower Records, scooping out the BTVS official fan magazine and the BTVS lunchboxes and memorabilia. Shortly thereafter, I got together with a college friend whose devotion to BTVS fandom inspired and amazed me: She was co-writing and co-presenting her scholarly work about BTVS's biggest online fan forum, The Bronze (here's the original forum, started during the WB days, and the new UPN forum). She was writing her own fanfic. She was a co-editor at a hip, snarky, girlie pop culture site. She and her cohort introduced me to the world of spoilers and online discussion about the show. And she made me understand that what had seemed like crazy-obsessive fan behavior was really OK, because while it is obsessive, it's also intellectually and socially engaging, and a whole lot of fun.
I still have moments of shame. When I found myself searching online for Spike/Giles "slash," fanfic in which characters are re-written in a romantic or sexual way, usually in same-sex pairs (see cultural critic Constance Penley's book Nasa/Trek for some of the best slash theorizing around), or when I do things like derail my household's Thanksgiving plans so that we can tape the episodes of an FX BTVS marathon, I've had to pause and ask myself at what point fandom becomes extreme. But there have also been moments of pride.
I love that this past Christmas all of my roommates exchanged gifts that were BTVS-related. Some of them we bought (the boardgame, the Sunnydale High Yearbook, several volumes of Buffy-inspired comics), but others we made (bedazzled t-shirts with "Slayerette" and "Spike" ironed and glittered across their fronts, CDs of this season's musical episode, games we've devised to play around our burgeoning vampire obsession). Fandom became a way to express our collective participation and to acknowledge each other's relationship to the show and its characters.
In our house, BTVS is the only show we all watch together; it's the only weekly event guaranteed to bring us all together on the couch to watch, critique, squeal and moan, and then later take what we've seen and interpret it, write about it, co-opt it and appropriate it for our own use. And this is the part of fandom that I think is the most valuable, the part that Ward misses in his definition: In this particular mode, it's more fun to admit our obsession and put it to some creative use than it is to watch passively from our spot on the couch.
Alana Kumbier, television editor for PopPolitics, is a writer who lives in Columbus, Ohio. Her previous articles can be found here.
Related Sites
Visit Slayage: the International Online Journal of Buffy Studies, for critical and scholarly articles.
Star Wars fan films can be found here; read Howard Wen's Salon article on the Star Wars copyright battle.
Read Emily Nussbaum's "Confessions of a Spoiler Whore" in Slate.
Looking to meet other fans? Head to Fan Forum.
From PopPolitics, other articles related to Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Sympathy for the Willow, continued; for Shadowkat especially; spoilers, S5-6 -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 17:55:59 06/25/02 Tue
I'm not sure we're as far apart as you think.
I was attempting, with indifferent success, to note that perhaps Willow's greatest obstacle to her recovery is Willow. The same emotional, internal problems that created Dark Willow will continue to impede her self-forgiveness.
Someone who suffers such extreme self-esteem issues as Willow may choose self-destruction as a route to a.) atone for her sins and b.) ensure that she can never so sin again. I was NOT saying that such self-destruction is the right path, but that an emotionally-damaged Willow may see it as such.
Let's take an analogy. If you had buried within you some form of trigger to annihilate the planet, and you had already come THIS CLOSE to touching it off, how would you react? Presume the following: there was no way to neutralize it save for your own death. There are people on this planet that you love. You know, rationally, that you have a history of emotional instability, and just MIGHT at a weak moment use that trigger. Presume further that you have already a background of self-disgust, even loathing.
What would be the logical response?
I'm NOT advocating suicide as a solution to anyone's problems. I'm just trying to explain why Willow might see otherwise.
To survive under such circumstances, she will need MASSIVE ongoing support from her friends. Shadowkat made a good point -- Willow has often served them loyally. Each might very well forgive Willow's efforts to destroy them, especially if they're mature enough to remember their own past sins in that direction. But they may be less willing to forgive Willow's efforts to wipe out third parties that they love.
Buffy was willing to risk the whole world to save Dawn -- even NOT trusting any of the Scooby Gang save Scooby Auxiliary Spike to do so. Here Willow, in Two to Go, is willing to wipe out Dawn as an afterthought. Can Buffy so readily forgive that?
I'm not saying that the problems are insurmountable. I'm not saying that Willow should die. I'm saying that the ME writers will need to address these problems carefully to provide a plausible solution.
As I noted at the beginning, Willow's survival is a work in progress.
[> Oooh Very good pt.s. But i think she already ...(spoilers) -- shadowkat, 19:03:39 06/25/02 Tue
Very good points in this post Fred and a much better worded one than the previous post. Sorry, been guilty of knee-jerk reactions. I swear sometimes I think I look at these characters like a mother hen.
You make a very good point about suicide and why:
"Let's take an analogy. If you had buried within you some form of trigger to annihilate the planet, and you had already come THIS CLOSE to touching it off, how would you react? Presume the following: there was no way to neutralize it save for your own death. There are people on this planet that you love. You know, rationally, that you have a history of emotional instability, and just MIGHT at a weak moment use that trigger. Presume further that you have already a background of self-disgust, even loathing. "
Yes - agree. Willow has been hiding herself her whole life
and even though everyone else likes her, she doesn't. And
it was very clear to me from Villains to Grave, she intended to take out the Trioka and then kill herself.
Buffy: "Willow, if you do this, there is no guarantee you can come back-"
Willow: "I don't plan on coming back."
Willow knew from Sam's statement in AYW that if she went full blown on dark magics, they'd consume her. Her decision to do it was not just one of vengeance but also suicide.
"I'm NOT advocating suicide as a solution to anyone's problems. I'm just trying to explain why Willow might see otherwise."
Willow already did. She wants to die. Only problem is her method is taking everyone else with her. It's an interesting allegory on the kamikaze pilots or suicide bombers - I hate myself and the world and let's all go out in a blaze of glory.
"To survive under such circumstances, she will need MASSIVE ongoing support from her friends. Shadowkat made a good point -- Willow has often served them loyally. Each might very well forgive Willow's efforts to destroy them, especially if they're mature enough to remember their own past sins in that direction. But they may be less willing to forgive Willow's efforts to wipe out third parties that they love."
Very true. It's easy for Buffy to forgive Willow's treatment of her - but not Dawn. And Xander, well he has the easiest task, he didn't see how Willow tried to kill Anya, Buffy, Giles and Dawn. Xander's the sort who only believes what he sees. So he may be the most forgiving.
But you are right - it won't be easy. And I must admit,
it's the struggle I've had with fan fic regarding Season 7, no one seems to know how to deal with Willow. Rowan has come the closest. So this makes me wonder how ME will handle it. It certainly makes me anticipate next Season more than any Season of Buffy in the past. They have not one but six characters they have to bring back from rock
bottom. How will they do it?
"I'm not saying that the problems are insurmountable. I'm not saying that Willow should die. I'm saying that the ME writers will need to address these problems carefully to provide a plausible solution.
As I noted at the beginning, Willow's survival is a work in progress."
You are right, we agree. My apologies for misreading you're intent in your old post. Thank you for taking the time to
set the record straight. (shadowkat humbly bowing her
head in remorse.)
[> [> Redemption is possible, (spoilers) -- cjc36, 01:45:05 06/26/02 Wed
Once the events conclude in Grave, the grief over the loss of Tara can be dealt with by the Scoobies in general. I get the following from the final act of Grave: The Scoobies end on a high note, and it seems Buffy is never 'angry' at Willow, just trying to stop her from doing something 'apocalyptically stupid.' They believe Willow is/was out of her mind with grief. Now, how much will that currency go in rebuilding possibly damaged bridges, I don't know, but I think she's got one heck of a get outta jail free card. So the Scoobies aren't the problem, I think they've already forgiven her and will blame grief-powered dark magick. The issue, as stated above, is Willow's forgiveness of herself. This is where AB will have to come in, I think, either in a form of dream image-Tara or ghost.
Also, in the S7 opening, Willow may have to/already be going through some very brutal trials. Devon Coven? ME made Angel spend '200 years' in hell before he was allowed to come back, and showed us how the time streams differ in "Anne." And Angel didn't commit the crimes of the demon Angelus. So with that track record, I'm thinking it's not going to be a great summer for Willow.
Hey, Spike and Willow: Grief over past deeds? Discuss between yourselves.
It is hard to imagine a one-stroke event that could bring Willow back to ordinary Willow. My take, if I was to do one, would be, after said Devon cleansing, she'd help Rack's other victims in Sunnydale through the course of S7.
Also, a new external threat will help get her mind off of herself.
But redemption is possible.
[> [> [> Re: Redemption is possible, (spoilers) -- shygirl, 06:27:59 06/26/02 Wed
"I don't know, but I think she's got one heck of a get outta jail free card. So the Scoobies aren't the problem, I think they've already forgiven her and will blame grief-powered dark magick."
If you say "it wasn't you, it was your grief it was dark magick" do you really do that person a favor, do you really forgive and accept all aspects of them or are you trying to externalize the evil within them and pretend it isn't really there as a part of their potential? If you take this path, it seems to me there is a danger that the individual in question, Willow, will see that they don't really accept all of her and feel even worse about herself.
I know that I am a good person. It is a choice I've made in life. However, when I was young I wanted to hurt someone physically... I wanted them to die. I wanted to be the one to make that happen. It was a shock to discover myself capable of such darkness. I was ashamed... but it is part of my potential, a part I acknowledge and know is there, but I make a different choice. I think Willow needs to arrive here...and she isn't going to feel good about herself until she does. Denying that part of her will only delay. Allowing hidden anger and allowing it to turn into resentment would be the worst thing that could happen to Willow.
[> [> [> [> Re: Redemption is possible, (spoilers) -- cjc36, 07:18:00 06/26/02 Wed
In real life, over-forgiveness would be a problem. It would merely enable the perpetrator an excuse. I guess I'm thinking in terms of dramatic story construction and character motivation. BtVS, to me, has a strand of DNA from serialized drama (comics, soaps). To me, in that world of fiction, a 'gro