June 2002 posts
Ways Xander Can Be More Useful... -- ZachsMind, 01:24:45 06/23/02 Sun
Back in the episode "The Zeppo," Xander felt left out. He wasn't a witch or a werewolf or a slayer. He was just a guy. This is an ongoing thing with him, although in the past season or so he hasn't seemed to act quite as unsure of himself as he used to be.
Admittedly, we know he's useful for a number of reasons, not the least of which is his stout, courageous (sometimes ignorantly brave) heart. However, if he sincerely felt the need to improve himself in ways that would help Buffy and the other, there are little things he could do in order to improve his level of assistance in the fray.
1. Actually train: They never have shown Xander training with Buffy or even taking karate classes. He just jumps into the battle, accosts a vampire or demon, and they pick him up and throw him across the room. If he actually learned a few moves he'd more than double his effectiveness in the field. He supposedly remembers military stuff from that time Ethan Rayne's magic unwittingly turned Xander into an army guy. However, he rarely ever seems to have practiced it or tried honing his skills. So his memories of that experience are little more than the equivalent of booklearning.
2. Drink Holy Water: I don't know why no M.E. writers have thought about this before. Human beings are over 90% water. The liquid we drink is what the body uses to help make blood and many other bodily fluids. If one drank several glasses of holy water a day, within a few weeks their body would contain nothing but holy water. So if a vampire tried to bite Xander, all they'd get would be the vampiric equivalent of a mouthful of hydrochloric acid. It might be diluted, but it'd at least make the blood taste bad to your common run of the mill vampire. It'd decrease the chances of Xander being turned. And he might even be able to spit at a vampire and hurt it, or piss on it? Maybe even his sweat glands would excrete holy water, so if a vampire touched him it would hurt. There's forty-two churches in Sunnydale, according to "What's My Line," surely Xander could find a source that would allow him to get a suitable supply.
3. Engineering: He's a carpenter now. He's trained himself to be able to build things with wood, both as a hobby and in his construction job. He made a cool wooden chest for Buffy's weapons in season six, but he could use a little ingenuity and build some special weapons.
Can you think of other things that a normal human like Xander could do to increase his usefulness in the battlefield against undead stuff?
[> Re: Ways Xander Can Be More Useful... -- O'Cailleagh, 01:36:25 06/23/02 Sun
Point 1- very true, Xander should train with Buffy.
Point 2- Amusing, although not likely to work, going on the principle that once the water passes through the body it is no longer holy (that is, holy in the Christian sense since the flesh is impure). Plus if it was still holy, all water on Earth would be holy by virtue of it being blessed at some point in time. (did that make sense?)
Point 3- wasn't Xander's job whittling stakes?!? Yeah, he could give weapon making a try, although I can't see a big wooden axe doing much good! Large catapults and the like might come in handy during a huge battle though.
[> +3 modifier for resistance to being turned -- Off-kilter's a dork, 02:18:06 06/23/02 Sun
[> Re: Ways Xander Can Be More Useful... -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:10:47 06/23/02 Sun
I've wondered for a long time if a person can gain increased strength and other capabilities by drinking vampire blood (without being bitten). Maybe Xander could become more of a butt kicker if he bled vamps before staking them.
Also, why not fill up the darts in the tranquilizer gun with holy water. One good shot, and a vampire burns up from the inside.
[> Re: Ways Xander Can Be More Useful... -- Corwin of Amber, 09:56:24 06/23/02 Sun
Holy water ballons and a slingshot. Or a supersoaker filled with holy water, Xander could take out a whole nest of vamps.
Yes, the idea is from the 'The Lost Boys.'
[> Why Angel Investigations team smarter than Scoobies... (spoilery) -- Scroll, 09:59:35 06/23/02 Sun
Here is one area in which the Angel Investigations team is way smarter than the Scoobies. Xander, Anya, and Dawn don't have any real powers like Buffy, Willow, Tara, and Spike. They can pick up an axe and hack away but no super powers to help defend themselves. They should take their cue from the AI women.
Cordelia is vision-girl and has been made half-demon. She has cool powers now. But even before her demonisation, she convinced Angel to train her with sword and self-defence. She accepts the fact that "menfolk not always around to save womenfolk" and when she is targeted by a misogynistic abuser, she goes off by herself to kick demon butt. And Fred is a scientist who builds cool weapons even under stress (witness her flying fire extinguisher that saved her from possessed Wesley). So yeah, AI team definitely more creative than Scoobies.
[> [> way smarter??? (SPOILERS) -- Robert, 22:29:16 06/23/02 Sun
>> "Here is one area in which the Angel Investigations team is way smarter than the Scoobies. "
Currently, the Angel Incorporated team consists of exactly two people; Gunn and Fred. Angel is stuck at the bottom of the ocean. Cordelia is stuck ... where ever. Lorne is in Las Vegas and Wesley is persona non grata. Gunn and Fred currently have no clue as to what has happened. Is this the mark of a team that is "way smarter"? At this point, I don't even see a team.
[> [> [> I didn't say they were smart in all areas! ; ) -- Scroll, 01:16:51 06/24/02 Mon
Yeah, okay, so the AI team consists of two people right now, everything's gone to hell in a really big handbasket. I'm just saying in terms of the *steps* they took in actually fighting evil this past season is better than anything Xander's done. Not that the Scoobies aren't smart : ) just that Cordelia and Fred really take initiative in protecting themselves instead of relying on the big strong men to do it for them.
[> [> [> [> Re: I didn't say they were smart in all areas! (SPOILERS) -- Robert, 14:02:32 06/25/02 Tue
>> "... instead of relying on the big strong men to do it for them."
So ... which "big stong men" where you speaking of?
and from your first posting;
>> "Xander, Anya, and Dawn don't have any real powers like Buffy, Willow, Tara, and Spike."
Anya is a teleporting vengeance demon, and you don't think that counts a real power?
[> Do you think... -- ZachsMind, 17:10:22 06/23/02 Sun
Do y'all think if the M.E. writers gave Xander some kind of special powers, it would diminish his real place in the Scooby gang from a perspective of storytelling? Xander presently represents the Everyman: the normal Joe who finds out his world is in much more trouble than other average Joes assume, and does his best to make things right without the advantage of any special abilities whatsoever.
If he suddenly woke up one day and had weird powers, would that make him somehow, irrelevant? Is he more special by being the only Scooby who isn't special in any way?
Great. Now I'm playing Devil's Advocate to my own post! LOL!
[> [> Re: Do you think... -- Corwin of Amber, 21:41:15 06/23/02 Sun
Personally, I've always liked the concept of Xander as the average joe, who's just trying to do the best he can, while faced with some very weird and scary circumstances. It might be fun to give Xander some sort of special powers for one ep, just to explore what Mr. Average Joe would do with them. Would he become as drunk on power as Willow, or would he be too afraid to use them?
[> [> [> Re: Do you think... -- Rendyl, 08:36:51 06/24/02 Mon
**Personally, I've always liked the concept of Xander as the average joe, who's just trying to do the best he can, while faced with some very weird and scary circumstances.**
Xander is like this little island of sane in a huge sea of insanity. Everyone around him is weird in some way and I have always felt that he acted like an anchor of sorts. He is always there to say what the others need to hear when they need to hear it. He may not save the world every weekend but I think he is what makes it possible for Buffy and the others to save it. Buffy is told at one point that she is just a girl which is true and not true. But for Xander he -is- just a guy and yet he makes a difference in the world around him.
I don't care for the fanfic stories where Xander is given all these great powers. (I understand them - watching Xander get smashed around is painful and frustrating at times) I think giving him supernatural powers would diminish his importance and his contributions. When he says (possibly paraphased)-
"Cavalry's here. Cavalry is a frightened guy with a rock...."
For me that is the essence of Xander. A scared guy who knows he may not make it but he is there anyway because a friend needs him.
-Ren
[> [> [> [> I think... -- Forsaken, 19:12:07 06/24/02 Mon
Yes, it is Xander's place to be the normal guy. The human being with no super-strength and very little magical proficiency. What bugs me is the fact that he has as of yet never been shown learning how to fight. He can take an axe and swing it, but not with the skill Buffy or Spike can. He knows how to throw one or two simple punches, but he doesn't seem to know how to DUCK or BLOCK. Cordelia was normal when Angel started teaching her to fight with fists and sword. Xander should start learning now.
[> [> drinking holy water and peeing it out is sort of of an everyman sort of power. -- Rochefort, 21:18:29 06/24/02 Mon
BB speculation for season 7 - very unlikely, but one can dream -- Off-kilter, 02:16:21 06/23/02 Sun
Take big grain of salt, cross fingers, wish REALLY hard!
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Dru! She comes back, tempting soul-man Spike to betray Buffy & SG who will have nothing to do with him. Buffy will have issues with killing her when reminded that the Love-O-Her-Life created this creature almost whole-cloth and that Dru is the most tragic figure ever made in the Buffyverse. Also, Dru's insane not stupid. She could really go to town imitating "Daddy" and tormenting each Scoobie . . . Xander in chains? Hmmmm. . . .
Totally unpredictable what she would want, what she would do, or even why she's doing it. Delicious, delicious, yum, yum!
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No one loves me! -- Off-kilter- weeping profusely *sob*, 02:53:42 06/23/02 Sun
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It's nothing personal against you of course... -- ZachsMind, 03:18:14 06/23/02 Sun
I just personally have little to no interest in seeing Drusilla on BtVS again. Angel maybe. I don't watch Angel much. Cordelia. Wesley. Angel. Dru. Faith. The characters I don't personally like much went to "Angel." Xander. Willow. Spike. Anya. Giles. The characters I actually like hang out on "Buffy." *shrug*
So your suggestion of Dru being a BB for Buffy is a valid one, but I just can't jump on your bandwagon for ya. Maybe if Dru showed up once during season seven, but I only want to see that if Buffy gives her a good solid "no deposit no return" kinda death. =)
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Don't post in the early hours of Sunday morning! -- Rahael, 05:33:20 06/23/02 Sun
and expect an avelaunche of replies! lol
As for your Dru idea, intriguing. They did exactly the same thing last season with Dru coming back and tempting Spike.
Got to disagree with Zach'smind. Least favourite characters on Angel? some of my favourite characters went to Angel!
My favourite character on BUffy is Buffy. And Giles.....but then he left too! It was always Angel, Cordelia and Wesley who were the others on Buffy who I liked. Dead Man's Party just never allowed me to look at Willow and Xander in the same way again. Yeah, I hold grudges. Specially since Buffy refuses to!!!
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Off-Kilter I like your idea but I am not up the late/early! -- Liana, 05:50:41 06/23/02 Sun
I loved your post on comics. It was very good. I also like the idea of Drusilla coming back. I think she would be the one character that would cause serious angst for newly souled Spike. I also like the characters on Angel. Gotta love that Wesley this season!
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Time zone differences -- Off-kilter, 14:30:16 06/23/02 Sun
Since I'm stationed in Japan, it was neither early or late. Twas about 6:30 PM 'round here, but I knew I was risking quick archiving. Ah, well. Just a wild hair anyway.
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Re: OT Time zone differences -- aliera, 15:26:31 06/23/02 Sun
Stationed in Japan...is that why nom de plume? Do you get Buffy there somehow? Is it popular?
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Re: OT Time zone differences -- Off-kilter, 16:40:05 06/23/02 Sun
Nope. Nope. Nope, unfortunately.
The name is because, well, it's me! Got addicted to Buffy last Nov in states with FX repeats of WAH/Initiative. Got intrigued, got on 'net, sucked up all 5.5 seasons in 3 month timeframe. A sad but common story among us aficionados led down the primose path to this wretched obsession. Stationed in Japan during re-run time in April. Everyone here has two reactions to my need for a Buffy fix: either they groan and give a patronizing grin at my bubble-headedness, or they go, "Buffy's over. Didn't she die?" They're an entire season behind here, and no support groups available.
Even worse, the movers broke my computer and my replacement is lost in the mail. Only have access to 'net at work and for some reason they expect me to actually WORK while I'm here! Have only seen a few downloads of season 6 since April. Live for wildfeed, this board, and email from crazies like me.
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Re: OT Time zone differences -- aliera, 17:45:30 06/23/02 Sun
It's hard. My brother in law shipped back in April (he's in the Rangers) but while he was gone I was downloading, printing and mailing on a daily basis to him...do you post at the C&S too? I ask because there's a poster there who is stationed in Japan also.
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One of many crazy kooks -- Off-kilter, 19:15:58 06/23/02 Sun
I have posted on C&S, but there are at least 2 others out here in Japan: one_by_one & gadget. They just aren't anywhere near me! C&S is also great, but I can't keep up with it due to the aforementioned lack of 'net time. They just keep churnin' and burnin'. I am too silly for this board, not zany enough for that one, but ya can't stop me now!
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OT Time differences -- Rahael, 02:49:24 06/24/02 Mon
I'm in London. The morning is getting old here, but it's the early hours in America, where most of the posters post. I still post of course but won't get responses until much later.
Now threads - all my threads died ignominious deaths (all 3 of them) whatever time they were posted.
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London fog, Yokosuka haze -- Off-kilter, 03:28:05 06/24/02 Mon
Sun is settin'
night draws nigh
I sit here frettin'
Just who am I?
Was trying to come up with some deep thoughts that can be made from looking at the range of minds, personalities, experiences and insights on this board, but all I could think of was my stupid poem.
Every post of yours that I have read has deepened my awareness of the world and given me new perspectives to appreciate. I'm a fan. Ok, that's all I had to say!
19:26 here in the Empire of the Sun.
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Re: London fog, Yokosuka haze -- Rahael, 05:13:55 06/24/02 Mon
awwwwwwww.
I can repay the compliment without any bias whatsoever!!!
Like your subject line by the way.
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Arctic sun -- matching mole, 08:13:35 06/24/02 Mon
This is really a different topic but it does relate to Buffy in remote parts of the world. Last week I had the priviledge of watching part of 'Welcome to the Hellmouth' north of the arctic circle in the Northwest Territories (that's in Canada). I don't remember which night it was but I was either in Inuvik or Fort McPherson. The Whedonverse seemed to pursue me throughout my vacation. The Edmonton Journal (I was in Edmonton before heading even further north) had long articles on some local actor who is starring in 'Firefly' (Nathan something I think) and an interview with SMG re 'Scooby Do'.
Being a vampire in the arctic would be rough. Constant daylight for months on end would really cramp your style.
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Re: Icelandic nights -- aliera, 08:53:34 06/24/02 Mon
But on the flip side...when i was in Reykjavik after June 21 the nights got increasing longer until by December 21 there was 3 hours of dusk (calling it dusk is probably a kindness) and the rest of the night was pitch black...much time for vamp fun...Iceland also has at least one Hellmouth!
I like both boards too for different things...here there's often time to develope a thought (not that I have many) whereas the C&S there's more of the feel of actually conversing with others...both good places.
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Re: BB speculation for season 7 - very unlikely, but one can dream -- Dochawk, 08:04:49 06/23/02 Sun
I think there is a real likelihood of Dru coming back. But Buffy having a tough time killing her? Not a chance. If for no other reason than Dru killed Kendra. And she's an unleashed vamp, she would have no guilt feelings whatsoever.
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Diabolical Plans -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:06:07 06/23/02 Sun
That's where Drusilla falls short: she doesn't seem to have much of a capacity to plan things.
Maybe Dru could come back with a new boy toy who does all the evil plotting while she proceeds to torment everyone.
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Re: Diabolical Plans -- O'Cailleagh, 10:47:56 06/23/02 Sun
Ok, a partner for Dru...um, Dracula? That I would love to see....and whatever happened to the Master's bones after Buffy smashed them? What if Drac and Dru were to perform the revivification ritual and bring him back? Now there's a scary trio!
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That would fit in well with the "going back to the beginning" theme -- Dariel, 15:17:23 06/23/02 Sun
Meaning going back to vampires as the Big Bad. Or at least the LB. And I'm sure Spike wouldn't like seeing Dru with "that poncy bugger"!
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Actually been thinking she'd be a good little b (spec inside) -- shadowkat, 13:59:54 06/23/02 Sun
This is my whole Dru scenerio:
Dru comes back as part of the BB. She's the little Bad
like Season 2. She captures Xander and Dawn. Spike saves
them. Big agnst, because to do so he must kill Dru.
But here's the thing - Dru may have been just a henchman.
Or and cjl came up with this idea when we discussed it on the B C & S board several months ago: Dru vamps Xander
and Xander becomes the BB.
Personally I think...it will be someone who looks like a formerly beloved character manipulating people.
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Re: shadowkat's spec -- aliera, 15:23:02 06/23/02 Sun
And we also have Cecily/Halfrek handy...and where's Harmony? We could set up quite a bevy of ex's for the dear boy (just in case the soul thing isn't torment enough)...seriously though I'd love to see Dru back.
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Re: Actually been thinking she'd be a good little b (spec inside) -- Jane's Addiction, 18:40:19 06/23/02 Sun
cjl came up with this idea when we discussed it on the B C & S board several months ago: Dru vamps Xander
and Xander becomes the BB.
Oooh. I know it isn't terribly likely, but I do love this notion. Especially given Xander's attitude toward Spike over the years. Spike finally gets his soul back and Xander loses his. But what would a VampXander sired by the wonderfully unstable Dru be like? Oh, the possibilities!
Regardless, it would be nice to bring Dru back - she and Spike always had such great chemistry. Slightly OT, but I just got around to watching one of the featurettes on the season 2 DVD with JL and JM talking about their characters. It's just too funny and sweet seeing them with their distinctly American accents getting all excited talking about acting together.
David Greenwalt (?), DVDs, dates, doors and UPN eps -- Cydney, 07:48:48 06/23/02 Sun
Sorry to combine questions/thoughts/comments, but have several.
David Greenwalt made an offhand comment in his commentary on the S.2 DVD of Reptile Boy we should wait - maybe Xander will end up with Buffy someday. I hope not, personally, but wonder what ME has up their sleeves.
Dates: In Halloween, Buffy and Willow are looking at the watcher diaries and comment that Angel was still human in 1775. It has been pointed out before that ME didn't get all the dates correct, and this is an example. [Conflicts with this season's Angel/Holtz backstory, too.]
Has anyone else noticed that the Summers' residence back and front doors have changed the direction they open several times during the series? Maybe they had to keep replacing them after the monsters broke them down...
Why is UPN skipping the Life Serial ep (a great ep) in favor of All the Way, which was moderately boring? But, watch Buffy face when Anya is going on about her engagement to Xander ... is Buffy thinking of Angel (yep)??
[> Re: David Greenwalt (?), DVDs, dates, doors and UPN eps -- Dochawk, 08:01:50 06/23/02 Sun
Well since David Greenwaldt has nothing to do with Buffy anymore (and little to do with Angel since he is going on to Miracles), I wouldn't get my hopes up to high about Xander. Unless they mean to end the series with them together, which I doubt.
[> Re: David Greenwalt (?), DVDs, dates, doors and UPN eps -- LeeAnn, 08:07:15 06/23/02 Sun
Why is UPN skipping the Life Serial ep (a great ep) in favor of All the Way, which was moderately boring?
Pushing Dawn. I think Dawn will be more and more central to most episodes next season.
Maybe UPN believes that the actors are irrelevant. That if Joss is in charge of the story it doesn't matter who the actors are. Maybe they believe that Joss can build a successful spin-off around MT as easily as around, say, James Marster and that MT is bound to be cheaper.
[> Re: David Greenwalt (?), DVDs, dates, doors and UPN eps -- Majin Gojira, 15:54:27 06/23/02 Sun
"David Greenwalt made an offhand comment in his commentary on the S.2 DVD of Reptile Boy we should wait - maybe Xander will end up with Buffy someday. I hope not, personally, but wonder what ME has up their sleeves."
What ME always has up there sleeves, Gloom and Doom.
" ... is Buffy thinking of Angel (yep)??"
This says SOO much, now don't it? Just thought I'd mention that little tidbit.
On the B/X Subject - it would make perfect sense, but, like all past relationships, there'd hafta be a bad aspect about it.
BtVS' relationships are always double edged swords. Some like them, then suffer through the horrible breakups that follow. Others, Hate the relationship and CHEER when they fall appart.
Either way, the audience is happy for a short period of time.
[> Will Buffy end up with Xander? -- ZachsMind, 18:02:08 06/23/02 Sun
I've thought a bit about the plot arc between Buffy & Xander. I'm personally not much of a "shipper" and have been known to get in trouble on other boards because people mistake my defensiveness as a "plotter" fan of shows like Buffy. I think shippers miss the point sometimes and lobby or pressure writers of tv shows into doing romantic storylines even when they don't make sense from a plotter's perspective, because the writers think the whole audience wants to see romantic relationships go a certain way, when in reality it's just a vocal minority. I'm explaining this as a preface to this message. I don't wanna get in trouble again. =) The following statements are not to be intended as a slight against fans who consider themselves Buffy/Angel shippers or whatever, and I'm also not trying to encourage Buffy/Xander shippers. This is just how I see it at the moment objectively, from a plotter's perspective.
Buffy loved Angel. She probably still does. However, due to the curse and many other factors, their relationship has been star-crossed from the very beginning. Now that they're on separate shows and networks, it's not feasible to consider that their relationship will move any farther than it has and that is perhaps for the best.
After Angel, the writers felt Buffy needed to experience a couple 'normal' relationships with normal guys. That's where Parker came in. Angel was a vampire with a soul. Parker was basically a human without a soul (figuratively speaking). As Willow put it, he's "Id Boy" using high cerebral functions and even rationalizing to himself that he's connecting with women on a higher level, when actually he was just submitting himself to The Pleasure Principle. He used Buffy in a very human but also very amoral way, which to some makes him more of a monster than Angel/Angeles ever could be.
Riley was basically a cross between Xander and Marvel Comics' Captain America. An unwitting guinea pig for Professor Walsh's experimentation on human physiology and psychology. I've gone back and watched some fourth season episodes. When we first meet Riley he's actually more interested in Willow than in Buffy, because left to his own devices, Riley is more attracted to brains than he is looks. He refers to Buffy as "Willow's friend" and tells his fellow Initiative cronies that he thinks she's "peculiar." It's not until the episode "The Initiative" that he starts taking a liking to Buffy. Walsh & Buffy have an altercation where Buffy accuses Walsh of showing no humanity to Willow's plight over Oz. Walsh turns to Riley as Buffy storms out. There is a pause there, and then in a very pointed and curious way, Walsh says "I like her." We learn later in the season that Riley has been one of Walsh's guinea pigs. Later in the same episode, Riley hears Parker refer to Buffy as a bitter joke, comparing her to a toilet seat. Riley responds by punching Parker in the face, which we learn is very uncharacteristic of him. I think Walsh conditioned Riley subtly to "like her." Riley may have never been attracted to Buffy without Walsh's assistance. So their entire relationship, though helpful in some ways to both Buffy & Riley, was instigated artificially via Walsh.
After Parker, Buffy had seen a pattern in her own life. "Open your heart to someone, and he bails on you." Riley did pretty much the same thing in season five. First she caught him doing the bloodletting thing with whore vamps. Then he left her for the military.
And then there's Spike. Spike left Harmony, but then who wouldn't leave Harmony? Spike claims Drusilla left him, but she did so because her premonitions told her he was going to fall in love with Buffy. As far as Dru was concerned, Spike had already left her before Spike realized it himself. He claims to have been with Dru for most of a century, but from what we've seen their relationship would have been at best 'turbulent.' Buffy's looking for a man who won't love her and leave her, but in Spike she found a man she could love and then leave. Someone to whom she could do what has been done to her. A vague form of unconscious vengeance. Spike was willing, but he's also the enemy, so on the outset *using* him didn't seem bad. How can doing bad be bad if you're doing it to a bad man? We've learned though that Spike isn't really all bad. He's just amoral, but he's learning. Buffy could no longer continue the relationship because she realized it was hurting him, and she's been there. So she tried to do for Spike what she failed to do for Riley: cut him off and make it quick.
Who's the one man in Buffy's life to whom Buffy has opened her heart and the guy still hasn't left? Who's been there when she needed him, through thick & thin? She wants someone who won't love her and leave her, or so she claims. Xander would never leave Buffy. Unlike his relationship with Anya, Xander would be willing to do anything for Buffy without reservation. It's ironic that Buffy doesn't find that the least bit attractive. She sees him as "a big brother."
Faith once asked Buffy if she's ever been with Xander sexually. She responded that she does love him but she doesn't *love* him. Faith didn't see the relevance. Buffy claims to want what's good for her, but it's standing right there in front of her and she turns away from it. Xander's the kinda guy a woman hopes to someday settle down with, but Buffy's not ready to settle down. Xander's nice. Xander's stable. Xander's never really going to become something adventurous and amazing. He's normal. A life with him would one day be a life of two kids, a two door garage and a picket fence. Will Buffy end up with Xander? That depends on the writers of M.E. of course, but it also depends on the character of Buffy herself. Will she play it safe or will she continue to set herself up for a fall?
[> [> Wow, Very articulate. Don't worry, you aint gonna get in trouble for this inightful Post -- Majin Gojira, 18:34:42 06/23/02 Sun
[> [> Re: Will Buffy end up with Xander? -- Dochawk, 14:13:40 06/24/02 Mon
Not a particular fan of Xanders, and doubt that Buffy will play it that safe. Also depends on the relationship Anya has with Buffy, because if they remain friends Buffy would never do it, but a large part of me hopes this will be the way the show ends. It would send a much better message than if she ends up with a reformed Spike. That is that the truest love is the one which makes you the best of yourself, that its mature, not fireworks. Exactly the opposite of what Spuffy represents.
The ATPo Asylumverse Consortium & Fictionary Corner Present --- A BtVS Novel -- OnM, 20:04:29 06/23/02 Sun
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~~~ Chapter 0 ~~~
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It's easier not to be wise
and measure these things by your brains
I sank into Eden with you
Alone in the church by and by
I'll read to you here, save your eyes
You'll need them, your boat is at sea
Your anchor is up, you've been swept away
and the greatest of teachers won't hesitate
to leave you there, by yourself, chained to fate
I alone love you
I alone tempt you
I alone love you
Fear is not the end of this!
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~~~ lyrics by Edward Kowalczyk ~~~
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[> *** Chained to Fate *** ............ A BtVS Novel ......... Chapter One -- OnM, 20:15:24 06/23/02 Sun
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chained to Fate ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~ Chapter 1 ~~~~~~~
"I see the appeal, really I do, sweetie".
Terry closed the bathroom door behind her and walked across the bedroom, bare feet padding softly across
the carpet.
"No, you don't, really." Owen turned away from the scene on the TV screen briefly, pausing to admire his
wife's elegant form only lightly concealed in the thin bathrobe as Terry stopped by the nightstand to punch
in the wakeup setting for the alarm. "But that's OK. Why do you keep obsessing over this? It's not an
argument that can be decided with logic. Art isn't that easily deconstructed."
"Of course it can, and I'm not obsessing."
There was a long pause, then a soft rustling sound as Terry slipped out of the robe and sat down on the
edge of the bed. Sliding open the nightstand drawer, she rummaged briefly, her hand emerging a few
seconds later clutching a rather substantial looking book.
"And since when do I obsess, other than when we're working? I get paid rather well to obsess then, so I
consider it my solemn duty." She pivoted gracefully, bringing her legs up onto the mattress, and then
stretched out in a semi-seated position, the remaining hand dextrously plumping up the pillows to support
her back and shoulders. Reaching up to click on an overhead reading lamp, she flicked open the book to a
previously marked page, and adjusted her glasses. "Ahh. Been waiting for him to get to the point. I've been
plodding through this to the tune of"-- a glance at the top right corner of the text, and a brief grimace--
"God! Over 275 pages and finally he's going to tell me what all this drivel about 'phase resonances
and the gravity wells of hyper-dimensional transections' is leading up to. How much you want to bet
nowhere, big time? Why can't theoreticians write like normal people?"
"Irony, much?" Owen tried not to laugh out loud, and failed for a few seconds, but regained his composure
quickly. Terry seemed to ignore the apparent dig, and replied in an even and controlled tone without taking
her eyes off the text.
"You know very well what I mean. People who are too busy trying to be clever, and end up not
communicating clearly." She flipped a page, then reached overhead and touched up the position of the
light. "Where are Joe Sagen and Bart Asimoff when you need them, huh? Boy, do I miss those guys." A
pause stretched on for a few beats, as Owen returned his attention to the screen, then she continued.
"Achh... incredible. Honey... just listen to this poop, it's so absurdly overanalyzed..."
"Hold on a minute Ter-- they're getting to the good part now."
The speakers flanking the TV panel suddenly flared with a burst of sound as an action scene began to play
out on the screen. A sleek, but nicely-muscled, dark-haired young woman seemed to be engaged in a fight
to the death with several creatures rather obviously not of human origin; all scaly green skin and pincer-like
crab-claws for hands, the latter of which swung out viciously at the girl, who deftly ducked and twisted
away just in time to escape getting slashed. A thin, wiry blond male character who had apparently been
knocked out a half-minute ago came back to life just in time to throw the girl a sword, and she quickly
began to dispatch the creatures with athletic abandon. Owen looked back over at his spouse, sighed deeply,
and reached for the remote. Thumbing the volume down key, he reduced the grunts, arrggs and flashy
music down to a background mutter. His eyes were twinkling, and after redepositing the remote unit on the
nightstand to his side of the bed, he leaned slowly back against the headboard, his gaze never leaving the
form of his wife's nude body reclining with such apparent casualness beside him, still engrossed in her
'research', or at least sincerely pretending to do so.
"Well," said Owen, "now you're sublimating the obsession into distraction." His slight smile widened
slightly more, and his voice rose a few notches in a tone of mock disappointment. "I strongly resent this
tactic. It's the fourth act, time to pound the big bad of the week into a bloody pulp and save the day for
humankind yet again."
Terry blinked, but otherwise continued her visual embrace of the tome at hand, replying to her husband
without turning her head.
"Yep. Same as it ever was. Every week a new foe, every week the good guys--". She paused a second for
emphasis, then, "or girls, in your case-- win. Not very realistic. Sorry. I understand the escape modality,
but it's so repetitive. Just for once, why can't we have a little depth to the procedings? A little metaphor,
possibly? Maybe the happy heroine of the hour could have a few flaws to make her more human. Wouldn't
that be a pleasant change?" She finally turned to look at him, her face scrunched into her best pedantic
countenance, but there was the hint of wanton glee lurking in the eyes behind the gold-framed lenses.
"Humm? Wouldn't that be so? And by the way, what happened to 'TV, volume down'?"
He reached over and smoothed the hair back behind her ear, stroked her cheek softly with the palm of his
hand. She gave a slight shiver, and folded the book down on her lap. "Humm? You're the emotive,
right-brain artsy one here, how would you write the script? Maybe give her a family, friends, not be the
'lone warrior'? Have her fail to save somebody one time, and then agonize over her failure?"
Owen began to laugh. "Ter, it's a TV show. For heaven's sake, she's an icon. The battles are symbolic as it
is. You fantasize, get the adrenaline going, you lose yourself for an hour."
"Actually, 52 minutes, with the sales spots. Gotta get them in, oh yes. 'Windows-X makes it shine!!'" she
beamed, parroting the spokesmodel perfectly, grinning idiotically at him. Her sweet laughter broke free in a
sudden cascade, and he began to melt inside, as he always did when she disarmed him this way.
"And the voice remote still needs work. It keeps raising the volume even when I say 'down'. I don't know
why, all the other commands work..."
"Humph. Some field kinetics engineer you are. I may have to reconsider my alliances in our current
endeavor."
Terry picked up the book from her lap, closed the cover, and laid it back on her nightstand. Rearranging
the pillows, she slid down from the half-seated position and rolled over to one side. "Or... maybe not," she
teased, beckoning him with her smiling eyes. Owen followed suit, quickly mirroring her new position, and
they pulled closer together.
"That could come off, you know", she smirked, tugging at the T-shirt he was wearing. "I seem to be
somewhat ahead of you in that department." Owen pretended to look annoyed at having to move from the
lateral mode back into a momentary sit-up, but then he suddenly rolled off the bed, stood up, and removed
both upper and lower garments. Plopping back down on the bed, and returning to the previous
configuration, he placed one hand solidly against the small part of Terry's back and pressed her closer to
him.
"There now, any additional commands, my demanding mistress? Are we equal again?"
Terry reached up and removed her glasses, twisting slightly over on her back to hastily drop them down
next to the book, and then returning to Owen, moved in to kiss him. The kiss was soft at first, then
gradually more passionate as her arms and legs began to entwine with his. As they slowly lost themselves
in increasing fervor, the credits began to roll by on the TV screen mounted to the wall across from the foot
of the bed. The 11:00 'Action News" program host began blathering on just as the final show credits
closed up shop, the dramatic opening theme music of the news report sounding inconguously muffled and
lumpy at it's reduced sound level as a visual parade of police actions, fires and assorted mayhem flashed on
one after another. Terry calmly unfolded herself from Owen's embrace, and moved her body up and over
to straddle him at the hips, her hands momentarily reaching over her shoulders and behind her neck to
settle her smooth blond mane so that it spilled luxuriously down her back, then returning them frontwards
to steady herself over him.
"There is just one more thing, my sweet slave. Can we lose that now? Not the kind of action I'm thinking
about for this very moment... are you?"
Owen, mostly lost in thinking how he never got tired of looking at her this way, nodded slightly, and
focusing his mind only just enough to clearly enunciate "TV, off, please" to the room, was
rewarded by a faint relay click and the subsequent cessation of sound and light from the display. He looked
up from Terry's torso to meet her gaze and chuckled aloud at the deliberate eye-roll she affected as soon
as they re-made visual contact. She sighed, bemused.
"Men. And their toys."
"Hey, I thought you liked my toys!"
She altered the latitude of her hips a few degrees southward, and received a very gratifying 'uhummmph'
from her spouse in return. The room had settled into ambient quiet with the TV off; the sounds of London
far enough away outside to provide only a faint, and easily forgotten reminder of the presence of the rest of
humanity.
"Some of your toys are quite excellent, my love. Of this there is no doubt".
***
They moved together with increasing fluidity; energy into the system; and the defeat of entropy certain.
The moment arrives, the soft then louder cry, the peak of the wave, the slow sweet relaxation back to the
ground state. The two lovers fall apart, and drift off to sleep, the hours pass.
***
A few minutes past 3:00 AM, and Terry wakes suddenly, sitting bolt upright as if an electric current had
suddenly surged through her body, eyes wide open, bearing a startled, but not frightened look.
She feels her heart pounding in her chest, and her breath is slowing steadily from it's initial primal gasp
upon waking. Owen twitches, then groans at the disturbance, but slowly rouses himself. Terry, her own
bearings quickly restoring themselves, swings her legs over the edge of the bed, sits up, then stands after a
brief pause and starts to cross the floor to the bedroom door and the hallway beyond. Owen sits up, and
watches her form disappear through the doorway, as thin straight ribbons of grey moonlight from the
hallway window trace shifting lines over her curves.
He gets up slowly. There is no hurry; he knows exactly where his friend, his lover and his muse will be
going. He picks up the rumpled T-shirt and shorts from the chair they were thrown upon just a few
passionate hours ago, sleepily pulls them on, and goes out into the hallway, following it and then the
curving carpeted stairs down into the living room. He walks into the kitchen, very slightly more awake
now, and opens the refrigerator door. Blinking repeatedly until his eyes adapt to the the sudden onset of
bright light, he roots around for maybe a quarter-minute, finally pulling out two bottles of lime flavored
mineral water. Opening one, and placing the other on the nearby counter, he takes several good swallows
before turning back to close the refrigerator door. The light from the fridge folds away as the door swings
shut, leaving the paler moonlight spilling on the floor in it's place. He stands with his back pressed against
the cabinet adjacent to the fridge, looking out the kitchen window at the moon, nearly full, as the final
percentange of sleep drifts away, and full mental focus returns. He watches the pale orb in timeless wonder
for several long minutes, then turns to pick up the second bottle of water, and heads back upstairs. The
hallway leads him back past the bedroom door and to a smaller, much older-looking door up to what once
was an attic space, but is now what he always thinks of as 'Terry's Aerie'.
Climbing the narrow and creaky old wooden stairs, his eyes clear the horizon of the upper landing, and he
slows a bit as his feet carry him over the last few steps. As expected, Terry is sitting, still completely nude,
in a modern drafting chair in front of an ancient looking and unusually large and tall wooden desk pushed
up tight against a large bay window looking out over the street. She is writing furiously, by hand, on sheets
of pale blue quadrille paper. As he walks quietly over to the desk, and places the bottle of water softly
down on the glass-covered desktop to the right of her right arm, he sees rows upon rows of equations
rapidly filling the page, symbols flowing out from under her fingers as if they were possessed.
He used to avoid speaking when he first saw her do this, afraid he would break her concentration, but soon
learned that it really was like a 'possession' of some kind-- whatever unfathomable ghostly savant took
over her mind at these moments, it was like she was watching it happen as well. It had frightened him at
the outset, but she seemed as mentally stable as ever once the 'ghost' left her haunt and the 'normal' genius
that was his mate returned.
"Are you OK?" he finally asked, as the mad scribblings began to slow down and become more staccato.
She responded with an unexpected hardness in her voice. "You always ask that, and yes, as always, I'm
OK."
Owen moved back just slightly, hurt and trying not to give that away. The writing stopped, and Terry, after
a long beat, turned to look at him. "I'm sorry. I know this still wigs you out, but..." She leaned back in the
chair, hands reaching up to reflexively rub her eyes and forehead, and then sighed deeply and slowly. "I'm
sorry. It's just-- it's so-- freaking intense." Another long beat. "I didn't mean to snap at you, you know
that, right? OK?"
He reached over to the water bottle, and handed it to her. Several drops from the condensation on the
outside of the cold bottle rolled down the side of the glass surface and dripped off as he moved it,
splashing onto her thigh as she reached out a hand to take the offering. She shivered at the abrupt
sensation, and then began to laugh.
"God, what would I do without you?"
She raised the bottle and took several long drafts from it, then moved it to the other hand so that she could
place her right arm around Owen's waist, pulling him in next to her by the chair. She looked over at the
sheets of paper, three of them, all nearly filled with numbers and symbols that would still be staggeringly
arcane to even 90% of the world's most talented physicists, but not to her and Owen. It was now three
years into their professional relationship, and one year into their personal one, and everything they had
hoped to accomplish in both seemed to be blossoming at an incredible rate.
"Be a lonely genius?"
Terry smiled. "You got that right, oh yes you do." She bent back over the desk. "Look at these, Owen. I
can't believe I didn't see this before." She shook her head slowly, caught up in the clear moment of
epiphany. "This is it. It is the oscillation constants, I was so sure, but Walsh insisted
it was the temporal phasing, and her figures seemed right, but there was something-- I just couldn't
find the damned flaw in her reasoning, but I knew it was there. I just knew it"
Owen was busily scanning over the equations on the second paper as his wife was speaking, and as the
numbers started to drop into place among the other ones already etched in memory from countless
previous theoretical explorations, he felt the gooseflesh start to rise on his arms, and the shock at knowing
that she was right. He didn't have her instinctual grasp of the abstruse math and physics involved, his gift
was in making the math corporeal, in designing and building the machinery that made the vapors of theory
into solid, practical reality. But he knew enough to know that she had done it. He had always been
in awe of her, but this was beyond awe. Staring him in the face was the key to a realm of possibly endless
quantum universes lying hidden from view, but no less real than the one they lived and breathed in now.
The finest minds on the planet had been trying fruitlessly for six long years to open a stable
interdimensional portal, a doorway to a countless number of alternate worlds, worlds of countless
possibilities and knowledge. Other worlds that could be brighter, more peaceful, more spiritually advanced
than their own chaotic Earth. His mind reeled, unable to quiet itself.
"Well, sweetie, what do you think?" Terry looked at her husband, whose gaze was still locked immovably
on the ghost writings as if they would disappear from the page at any moment.
Owen slowly forced his eyes away from the pages lying so innocently on the smooth glass, and returned
her look.
"I think I need to get some rest, now. You good with that?"
She smiled back. "Yeah, I think that's a plan."
Taking her hand, he pulled her up out of the chair, and they climbed carefully down the steep attic steps
and headed back into the bedroom as the next new dawn waited just a few short hours away over the
morning horizon. Terry fell asleep just minutes after her body hit the sheets.
Owen lay widely and bewilderingly awake, and couldn't help but wonder if he was ever going to sleep
again.
*******
[> [> We hope you enjoyed! - Tune in next week ( probably ) for Chapter Two :-) -- OnM, 20:24:40 06/23/02 Sun
[> [> Awesome Writings! -- Finn Mac Cool, 22:19:56 06/23/02 Sun
This was a truly awesome first chapter. It nicely builds up to when the portals are gonna open and two universes meet. Especially liked the conversation about a butt-kicking woman on TV and the thought about finding more spiritual, more peaceful worlds. Boy are THEY in for a shock.
I would be happy to supply ideas for this story, and I might want to write some chapters after you get farther in (wouldn't want to derail the path you're taking).
[> [> [> Consider yourself volunteered, then! -- OnM, 05:25:31 06/24/02 Mon
Be glad to add your thoughts and inputs to this project. It's still just beginning (yes, the post title is correct, this is a 'novel'), so there is the entire rest of the summer for chapter contributions to be made.
I'll mail out some outline info and try to bring you up to date on things over the next few days.
Welcome!
[> OnM? Maybe you can help me out. -- VampRiley, 22:22:47 06/23/02 Sun
Some want me to put my R v J parts into the Fic Corner. Thing is, I don't know who to send it to, what the guidleines are and if there is anything specific I need to do. Whenever I've tried the e-mail addresses, I get a "failure to deliver" message. Do you know what I should do? Thanks.
VR
[> [> Guys? What is the current scoop? Should VR be talking to Sol, or Liq? -- OnM, 05:35:25 06/24/02 Mon
Actually not exactly sure, VR, I was going to be dealing with that issue myself as these new fic chapters get deleted from the archives and are supposed to eventually end up at the Existential Scoobies/Fictionary Corner site, which has been having some 'remodeling' done, as you may or may not know.
Sol? Liq?
Where are we at right now, and what are your preferred contact addys for current fic and/or article submissions?
Thanks!
[> [> [> I'm now told it's to Liq. -- VR, 07:02:25 06/24/02 Mon
Use this
lj@ivyweb.net
I tried it and no failure to deliver notices
VR
Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- ZachsMind, 02:06:22 06/24/02 Mon
Joss Whedon has been reported as saying recently that Amber Benson is returning next season, but that Tara is not. I've been thinking this means Tara is going to turn into a ghost. However, from a producing perspective that would mean Tara's returning but Amber Benson may not. The character of Tara would make appearances on the show as a Spirit Guide, but they wouldn't need Amber Benson to play her. They could just use special effects.
So if you were executive producer of Buffy, and a reporter asked you about Tara, had your brain been thinking of turning Tara into a ghost, you'd say the opposite: "Tara is going to return but Amber Benson will not." That's NOT what he said. The actress is going to make a reappearance, but the character of Tara is gone. So how would M.E. bring Amber Benson back without bringing back Tara? Create a new character that hasn't been established before? Like a twin sister or someone who just happens to look just like Tara but isn't? That's way too corny even for Whedon.
Unfortunately, the most logical answer I came up with is this: TaraBot.
*shiver* I know. Ewww. But it fits. We know Willow can make a bot. She has been studying robotics off and on since the second season episode Ted. She knew BuffyBot inside and out at the start of last season, even though it was originally Warren that built her for Spike. Wicca Willow may swear off once again from dark magic, but no one ever said anything about geeky Willow swearing off technology.
Pray I'm wrong. This could be bad.
[> oops. typo. -- ZachsMind, 02:12:59 06/24/02 Mon
Please pretend I said "Witchy Willow" instead of "Wicca Willow" because technically Willow's not wiccan and never has been. I think she still thinks she's jewish. Tara was wiccan. She had respect and responsibility for nature. Willow used magic for kicks and selfish gain. If she really were a pagan witch, she gives the real ones a bad name.
[> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- John Burwood, 05:20:37 06/24/02 Mon
Hasn't Amber Benson written a screenplay for her own movie, & written for Buffy graphic novels?
She could come back as one of the ME writing team - they must be needing`more writers now they are doing Firefly etc.
That way Amber could return but not Tara.
Pure speculation, but might be interesting.
[> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- ahira, 05:44:11 06/24/02 Mon
Well, would be an interesting idea, but don't really see them going that way. Building a bot would be too much like standing still or taking backwards steps for Willow on any road to recovering from season 6. They could try and work it in as positive as possible, but has that feel of dwelling in the past to me.
[> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- Purple Tulip, 07:13:28 06/24/02 Mon
Although I hate to think of this happening, the first thing I thought of when I read your post, was that they could bring her back, maybe briefly, as someone who looks an awful lot like Tara, but isn't. This could be extremely haunting for Willow, and be one more thing for her to deal with on her road to recovery. I really hope that I'm wrong because I think that idea is so cheesy and cliched, and I expect more from ME.
[> [> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- Brian, 07:57:08 06/24/02 Mon
But, Joss likes to take plot cliches(sp?) and turn them on their ear into something new and wonderful. After all, Buffy started as the blonde bimbo who walks into the dark alley, the spooky celler, the scary old house, a lamb to the slaughter who suddenly kicks butt. Amber returns, and reality takes a nasty twist.
[> [> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- cjc36, 06:36:58 06/25/02 Tue
I'm thinking AB/NotTara will play in Willow's recovery arc -a witness to the prosecution/defense in some PTB/Devon coven proceeding to determine what is to be done with Willow, or a ghost/spirit guide.
But no, not a TaraBot.
A fanfic with GhostTara giving Willow all kinds of hell and guilt for what Willow's done would be a must-read!
[> [> [> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- ZachsMind, 11:59:09 06/25/02 Tue
I wouldn't want to see a GhostTara persecuting Willow for her actions. Rather I'd prefer to see Tara's spirit attempt to guide Willow through her own inner demons. I wrote a couple fanfics and have posted them at zachsmind.com/buffy. In "You Slay Me" I focused on Willow's own inner turmoil, and in "Unrest" I dealt with Tara's fate as a spirit and guide. Perhaps had I thought to combine the two ideas into one it would have made for a better fanfic. One that would have gotten more response at fanfiction.net. Instead I approached each concept separately.
[> [> [> [> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- cjc36, 01:51:24 06/26/02 Wed
Either guide/forgive or prosecute. I see her role either way. The destruction Willow wrought was kind of in Tara's name, so Tara may have issues with that. But I do feel, as I mentioned in a post above, that Tara's spirit will probably play a positive role in Willow's forgiveness of herself.
[> VampTara -- Cleanthes, 08:42:53 06/24/02 Mon
Along these lines, we never saw anything about Tara's character in VampWillow's alternate reality of `The Wish` or `Doppelgängland`. Perhaps VampTara over *there* discovers that her super-sweetie, VampWillow could be recreated by coming to this universe and vamping normal Willow.
I'll betcha that VampTara has no qualms using magic for whatever she wishes.
[> [> Like that idea! -- dream of the consortium, 12:41:54 06/24/02 Mon
Though it's hard to imagine it lasting long enough to justify more than one or two appearances for Amber. Oooh, unless Willow tries to find someone to curse her (having sworn off magic herself, of course)! Then we could have almost enough Souled Vampires for a band.
[> [> [> Re: Like that idea! -- Sophist, 12:48:46 06/24/02 Mon
I do too. But there are some details to work out. For example, VampWillow was dusted in her world while everyone was still in high school. That means she never went to UCSunnydale and never met Tara. And what would VampXander have to say about this anyway?
[> [> [> [> Re: Like that idea! -- dream of the consortium, 13:11:14 06/24/02 Mon
Maybe Vamp Tara can have some sort of visionary power? Becomes obsessed with VampWillow after a dream vision? I'm sure something could be worked out....
And I can't imagine VampXander would have ANY complaints.
I'm still holding out for a VampXander in the regular Sunnydale dimension, though.
[> [> [> [> [> I'm putting you in charge of plot lines, dream. ROFL about VampXander. -- Sophist, 13:26:39 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Like that idea! -- Masq, 13:56:32 06/24/02 Mon
"And I can't imagine VampXander would have ANY complaints."
Why is it that guys assume that if their girlfriend takes up an interest in other women, that she'll retain her interest in the boyfriend and threesomes will commence?
They'd feel differently if their girlfriend out-and-out dumped them for a woman. ; )
[> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- Wizardman, 13:06:29 06/24/02 Mon
I don't know about Joss' track record, but I have heard that other high-ups at ME are known for releasing false spoilers and screwing with people. Could this be just an attempt to fake us out to make us all go YES! with great vigour when Amber returns as Tara? I hope so.
Having Amber as a writer... I like that idea too. She is multitalented- actress, singer, writer, comic book writer, etc- so there's hope on that angle, even if she's not in front of the camera.
As for TaraBot/VampTara... both are possible, although they have been done before. In my opinion, ME can do anything it wants as long as it isn't repetitive or stupid. I see VampTara as more likely than TaraBot. The Bot idea has been done, but the WishverseVamp angle has potential. Think about it- Anya brings a version of Tara to comfort Willow, only it's from the alternate dimension that gave us VampWillow. In that case, then Tara never met Willow, in life or unlife. So not only is Tara a vampire, but she has absolutely no idea who Willow is. Suitably angsty for ME, no?
[> [> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- Dochawk, 14:28:58 06/24/02 Mon
As a Tara lover and especially an AB lover I would love to see her back as a form of Tara, but she wasn't vamped. She was murdered and her body remained in the house all day (daylight hours) so there is no way she could have been vamped (not that it matters since there is no way harmony could have been either, the vamp who bit her was staked moments later).
The idea of AB as a writer for the series hadn't occured to me, but that may very well be the answer to the conundrum. clearly ME needs new writers (there has been an exodus this year)and her story in TOTS was very good.
[> [> [> TaraDemon & Spike's Chip -- ZachsMind, 17:07:47 06/24/02 Mon
Okay so we got GhostTara, TaraBot, and VampTara. Howzabout TaraDemon?
Tara's family insisted that all Maclay women become demons after they reach the age of twenty. Sounded ludicrous. Maybe they left out the part that the Maclay woman has to die first, which was why they wanted her to come home with them so they could "care" for her by killing her human self and releasing the demon. They seemed a pretty screwed up family. But Tara said no. She stayed with her friends: her adopted family. Heck, they already had one ex-vengeance demon in the mix. Even if Tara was a demon, so long as she wasn't one of those evil kinda demons who tend to eat babies, she'd still be welcomed into the Scooby fold.
An argument against this: Chiphead Spike punched Tara in the face to prove that she was human. This convinced everyone in the room, and it even convinced me, but in a different episode Xander gave Spike a gun. He just pointed the gun at a human and his chip went off. Afterwards he was told the gun wasn't even real - it didn't work. So the chip functions on Spike's belief system. The chip can't tell if something is human or not, but it reacts to the neurons firing in Spike's brain and determines whether or not HE thinks something is human. Spike can run up to Willow or Anya and try to scare them into thinking he's going to hurt them in some way, so long as in his mind he isn't thinking about committing the violent act. The chip may have not worked on Tara because Spike believed 100% that Tara wasn't a demon. She could still be one.
This would also explain why Spike can hit Buffy. She's come back from the dead. Spike saw it with his own eyes. He watched her die. Three months later she was walking around. So to Spike's belief system she's not human. She's undead. Just not in a rotting flesh zombie kinda way. So Buffy didn't come back wrong at all, even on a submolecular level. Buffy just came back wrong by Spike's intimation. The wanker. *smirk*
[> Time Travel -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:25:09 06/24/02 Mon
Maybe one of the Scooby Gang (I'm thinking either Willow or Dawn) go back in time to try and stop the events of Seeing Red.
A good ending to that episode would be Willow stopping it because messing with the past can have bad consequences. That would be a big step for her.
[> What Looks Like Tara, Walks Like Tara, Talks Like Tara... -- cjl, 14:11:36 06/24/02 Mon
But isn't Tara?
Why not take a cue from "Becoming" or "Amends," where evil entities tortured our heroes by taking on the faces of loved ones and/or innocent victims? (Robia got TWO paychecks that way!)
What better way for a villain to torture/break Willow and maybe turn her back to the dark side than to impersonate Tara and gnaw at that tender nerve in the back of poor Willow's head?
[> [> Well that would be everyones worste nightmare -- shadowkat, 10:20:28 06/25/02 Tue
A demonic entity that looked, felt and talked like TARA.
But really wasn't.
[> [> [> Re: Well that would be everyones worste nightmare -- John Burwood, 11:26:53 06/25/02 Tue
How about a shape-shifting demon - that could be Tara to upset Willow, Joyce to upset Buffy & Dawn, Jesse to upset Xander?
Maybe one which can only imitate the dead - could also imitate the Mayor or the Master or Snyder to freak out everybody.
Like the First Evil's illusions only solid.
Each and every separate character's separate worst nightmare.
Probably too wild an idea, but I did love the ep Nightmares.
[> [> [> [> Love it too... -- shadowkat, 19:26:28 06/25/02 Tue
Hope they do it - that would be cool.
Yep, Nightmares is one of my all time favorites.
But what you suggest happened in Amends with poor Angel.
Hmmm they could do something similar with Spike? Naw
too repetitive. Whatever they do, please don't be redundant, that's what I love about the show, it hasn't been redundant, yet.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Love it too... -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:07:31 06/25/02 Tue
They could do something similar to Amends, but have Spike give into the temptation to evil.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Also redundant -- shadowkat, 06:30:13 06/26/02 Wed
Evil Spike? Been there done that. Redundant.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Also redundant -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:02:57 06/26/02 Wed
Ah, here's the thing:
We've seen Spike do evil things for evil reasons. And we've seen him do good things for reasons ranging from selfish to in the name of love.
Well, what if he became even more in the gray. What if he started doing evil because he thought it was the right thing to do. A possible scenario could be joining up with Season 7's Big Bad if he/she/it promises to spare Buffy and Dawn. He'd be doing evil, but doing it because he thought it was right.
[> Still going with Spirit Guide... -- Scroll, 07:37:48 06/25/02 Tue
I'm thinking Amber Benson will reprise her role from "Restless" as Buffy's spirit guide. Since Season 7 is supposed to be a return to Year One, where Buffy is this powerful woman who kicks butt, maybe they'll continue exploring what it means to be a Slayer. That would bring up the First Slayer again, and perhaps Amber as that spirit guide who spoke for the First Slayer. She could appear to Buffy in prophetic dreams.
[> My problem... -- maddog, 21:19:21 06/25/02 Tue
My problem is that unless they change her look(including facial features) no matter what they call her, I'm still gonna see Tara. It'll be hard to seperate. You can't just use the same actress and expect us not to do that.
[> [> Maddog, I agree... -- aliera, 07:47:03 06/26/02 Wed
There's been quite a bit of talk elsewhere about this and it's hard to see how they will pull it off convincingly (of course I'm one of the one's who was unconvinced by the addiction storyline). The most common guesses seem to be some form of astral guide for Buffy and or Willow. I really enjoyed the scripted lines for Tara this season; but if they do mature the characters a bit over the summer, and use Giles more, I'm not sure they will need her as that type of counterpoint. She's missed.
[> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- NightRepair, 04:33:49 06/26/02 Wed
How David Lynch of him!
James Marsters at SFX Convention -- LeeAnn, 02:53:12 06/24/02 Mon
James Marsters at the SFX Convention
How difficult it was doing the AR in Seeing Red:
Then he was asked what the most challenging scene he had done so far was. He said the shower room scene and wondered if we'd all seen that yet as some only had terrestrial TV. He then said that he had turned down roles in the past that contained that sort of material and admitted, "I can't even watch stuff where women or children get hurt, I want to kill them - I want to kill the writer." Afterwards he went home in tears "blubbering". He was glad he did it as it fitted the story line, etc, but he doesn't want to go through it again.
He dated Harmony!!
He said that he went out with Mercedes on a date and then admits (sheepishly) that he left it a week and a half before he called her. After that he blew it and she wouldn't give him the time of day.
AND..
In Tabula Rasa it took twelve takes to do the final kissing scene because he kept kissing Sarah for real and she had to tell him that it was like stunt scenes. You don't hit someone for real and neither do you kiss someone for real.
Lucky Girl!
[> Interesting... -- shadowkat, 07:10:28 06/24/02 Mon
and I need to stop reading these things...all it does is build my infatuation for an actor I'll never meet. LOL!
Okay, so those kisses we see on TV aren't real? What
do they do kiss air? Or is it the no tongue rule? Just
curious...
Understand his views on SR. I remember an actor posting on B C & S who got me to watch that scene, he said as an actor the acting alone was tremendous on both parts and how incredibly hard that type of scene is to do for actors. It's easy to write it, but to perform it well is trememdously difficult. And the acting in that scene blew me away - it was actually IMHO the best acting in the entire episode and overshadowed everything else. And certainly the best portayle I've seen TV do of that type of scene in a long time. JM and SMG should get nominated for an emmy that scene alone.
[> [> Nominated for an emmy? Don't hold your breath. -- LeeAnn, 07:44:33 06/24/02 Mon
The day James starts getting the recognition he deserves is the day sinners can stop worrying about roasting in hell cause it will have frozen over.
[> [> Re: Interesting... -- Exegy, 09:00:15 06/24/02 Mon
I think the stage kisses are devoid of actual tongue; they're just mouthing. I recall an interview with Eliza Dushku ... ED was talking about her kissing of DB in Enemies. She mentioned to the crew that they might want to do the take without Angel's vamp-fangs, because her tongue kept getting scraped. Whereupon everyone looked at her with rather funny expressions. She wasn't supposed to slip tongue with another actor (wonder what DB thought!). ED came up with a quip on method acting ... of course. Sorry, I don't have a link to the actual interview, but I know I have the basic gist right.
On SR ... I agree, the bathroom scene is probably some the best acting I have witnessed from either JM or SMG. It must have been harder for them to do than it is for us to watch. The Emmy committee should take notice ... but probably won't. I'm almost certain that Sarah won't get a nom; JM has a slightly better chance ... he's been getting some incredible buzz lately. I'd say that he and AH have the best chances for any BtVS actor to get a nom for this season ... but the odds still aren't favorable.
OMWF is another story ... if that ep doesn't garner some Emmy recognition.... GRRR AARRGH!
[> [> [> Completely agree... -- shadowkat, 09:30:52 06/24/02 Mon
JM actually made Season 6 work for me - it was like watching a trapeze artist or tight rope walker. His performances in Bargaining, Afterlife, Life Serial,
OMWF, TR, Smashed, Wrecked, Gone (and that had to have been tough, completely naked, pretending to be having sex
with someone who is invisible...he convinced me she
was actually there), DT (tight wire act if I ever saw one, especially that Bronze scene), AYW (just about saved the episode for me), Normal Again, Hell Bells,
Entropy, and of course SR - that man had to literally display the full range of emotions with little to no dialogue on his face - in Entropy, Anna had most of the dialog, JM all the reaction shots. I've watched a ton of TV in my life
and seen other shows this year, and no one blew me away like he did. And he did it subtly and professionally.
AH and SMG were very good. And I agree AH and JM have the best chance this year.
Also agree - if OMWF doesn't get a nod, I'll give up
and treat the Emmys the way I've started treating the
Oscars - worthless popularity contests. ;-)
On ED and DB - LOL! I know Gellar keeps telling stories where DB and her used to trick each other by eating tuna
fish, onions and pickles b/f kissing scenes. Yep, I think that's the standard, no tongue - soap actors don't b/c of all their love scenes. Nor do most tv. But lots of stage and movie actors seem to because it comes across as a real kiss. (I've heard explanations for both styles.) Sounds complicated - sort of glad I'm not an actor and just a poor frustrated writer. ;-)
[> [> [> Emmys -- Dochawk, 13:50:09 06/24/02 Mon
One of the nice things about what I do and where Ilive is that I get to meet alot of people involved in the "Industry" (and they tend to like youwhen you don't fawn and don't wwant to use them to get into the industry). I have had more than a few chats with Emmy voters (none of whom would give me the DVD nor get me into the ATAS event though). SMG has an excellent reputation and seems to have a reasonable chance of a nomination. Her name is much better known than anyone else involved in Buffy (maybe even better known than Joss) and all the publicity for Scooby and how well it did reallyhelps at a time when people are sending their nominations in. And also look at the competition for the noms this year. At least two spots are open (since Sopranos isn't eligible) and West Wing had a down year (and I would be suprised if she is consiered in female lead for a drama and not supporting). Who does that leave? Amy Brenneman was nominated for Judging Amy last year, so we'll assume she gets it again, Marg hellenberger for CSI has to be the favorite, Sela Ward? for a cancelled show (its certainly happened before). Then there are the last two spots and they will come from 3 women I think: Jennifer Garner for Alias; People have mentioned Keri Russell for Felicity, another cancelled series and SMG. Can anyone think of another contender? None of the women on 6 Feet Under are really lead. Remember she already won an Emmy for Daytime and those members get to vote. I think its a great chance for her to breakthrough. (BTW Lauren Graham from Gilmore Girls who I would have thought was a shoo-in seems to be considered in the comedy category, didn't know GG was supposed to be a comedy, but could be wrong about it).
As for AH and JM. AH has a better chance, solely because she is much better known and the competition is no where near as fierce. JM deserves a nom, but Best Supporting Actor is really really tough, 3 men from West Wing, 2 from 6 Feet Under, then ER, NYPD Blue etc are much more mainstream.
[> [> [> [> Well, I just hope BtVS manages to get ONE acting nom before series' end! -- Exegy, 19:25:30 06/24/02 Mon
All these fine actors merit at least some Emmy recognition for their stellar work over the years. If the nominating committee considers body of work--there is no doubt that Sarah especially deserves her spot. However, I'm not sure that she'll get it this year--seems like the critics have underrated much of her nuanced performance. So while Sarah nails her main storyline of depression wonderfully, a lot of viewers haven't really noticed--they've been too turned off by the unrelenting darkness.
JM and AH were given very dark storylines to fit with the season, but their characters were not so completely submerged in depression. They were far more colorful and expressive. In comparison, Buffy's intentional lack of expression reflects poorly on the actress ... even though she is doing her job extremely well.
It just seems like JM and AH gave more "crowd-pleasing" performances, attracting more attention to their acting by the nature of their roles. AH's Willow particularly attracted the buzz in the last episodes, with the focus of the finale turning upon her character's self-destructive rebellion. And then, in case anyone forgot about Spike, there was the cliffhanger to keep him in mind.
So here is my opinion of who is most likely to get an Emmy nom (not necessarily most deserving):
1. JM--I'd submit either SR or After Life for consideration. On the one hand, SR features probably the most difficult acting scenes ... but on the other hand, it also features the culmination of a dark storyline that turned many viewers off. This is Spike at his worst. In stark contrast, After Life shows Spike at his best ... a "noble knight" who lives in the shadow of his failure only to have his love miraculously return to him. At the time of After Life, the character in no way seems destined to become a near-rapist. Comparing After Life and SR just shows how far Spike has come down ... and what range JM is capable of. It's really disappointing that two episodes can't be submitted for consideration, because SR and AL would be a perfect double-whammy.
2. AH--I don't know if the two-part finale counts as a single episode, so I'll hold off on that. Her other fine performances include Bargaining, Wrecked, and (arguably) Villains. I'd go with Bargaining (I), if only to show that AH was able to convey the underlying seeds of Willow's spiral into darkness so well ... even while maintaining the character's apparent sense of righteousness.
3. SMG--In my opinion, Normal Again is perhaps the most hauntingly effective performance she has ever delivered. She captures the internal dilemma Buffy faces so well ... seriously, there may have been tears in my eyes. What a great episode ... with SMG's Buffy as its undisputed centerpiece.
4. ASH (only if he is considered for Best Guest Actor)--I'd probably choose to send Flooded, which features the heartwarming reunion of Giles and Buffy alongside the chilling confrontation of Giles and Willow. Interesting contrast ... and one that is repeated in the finale.
5. EC--This actress has really delivered on an expanded role. She has great comedic timing. I don't know if I'd submit her alongside AH, though, because that might weaken ME's best chance at a Supporting Actress spot. In a hypothetical scenario, I'd send in either HB or Entropy for Emma ... probably Entropy, because she owns that ep (along with JM and NB).
6. NB--I doubt he has any realistic expectations of Best Actor or BSA this season ... too underdeveloped a role for too long. That said, he turns in some fine performances in HB, Entropy, and SR. He proves that he can handle the serious as well as the funny.
7. MT--She's a fine young actress, but this year she was saddled with the most insipid of the main characters. Dawn was mostly used as a device and a reflection of the other characters, and it shows. Maybe next year.
Anyone else with opinions? Flame away.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Well -- LeeAnn, 20:47:23 06/24/02 Mon
I'd add As You Were for JM. I know people hate this episode for Riley and the plot holes but I love, Love, LOVE the acting that JM did in it. I think it and Seeing Red absolutely showed his genius. Sometimes I think one of the reasons that people hate this episode is that JM's performance was so powerful that it was painful to watch.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, that *was* painful ... -- Exegy, 21:26:42 06/24/02 Mon
JM does a great job in conveying Spike's vulnerability (Williamosity, LOL). I'm in total agreement with you about his genius ... but I'm not sure that AYW would be a good choice to send in to the Emmy panels. I don't think the episode holds up as well as SR or AL ... there are other aspects of it that detract from the performances. I'm sorry, but even JM cannot make me believe that Spike is an international arms dealer who goes by the name of The Doctor. Amoral and opportunistic? Sure. But my suspension of disbelief can only extend so far, and then no fanwank on this earth can salvage it.
There's great acting in AYW, but like I said--I don't think that the episode is the best showcase for it. A lot is lost in the plot-clutter. Whereas AL really emphasizes those quiet moments of character, drawing attention to the various actors' abilities. (Also, there are longer reaction shots, which are more impressive than the short edits. And speeches on the caliber of "Every night I save you" merit extra brownie points).
This is all, of course, personal preference, but I suspect that SR or AL or even DT would make a stronger case for JM than the spotty AYW. It's about putting one's best efforts forward in the episode where they have the best chance of being noticed.
Having said all this, I mention again that I really agree with you, but I'm not sure that an Emmy committee would. I guess it takes dedicated fans to pick up on the nuanced performances ... a lot of my friends will watch a Buffy ep and just shake their heads when I mention the exceptional acting. You're just not going to get it if you're only a sporadic viewer, which is why BtVS hasn't achieved the mainstream respect ... because it's not friendly to the casual fan. There should be more obsessives like us! Then those Emmy voters would really get it!
Okay, if this ramble makes any sense, then I shall be surprised. Thanks for putting up with me today.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, I just hope BtVS manages to get ONE acting nom before series' end! -- ravenhair, 20:53:41 06/24/02 Mon
I'm really hoping AH is nominated for Best Supporting Actress. Which episodes have been turned in to the voting committee? If OMWF is the only ep that has been submitted, SMG is the only actor I see being recognized. JM gave several great performances (AfterLife and Seeing Red stand out) and would be thrilled if he were nominated for Best Supporting Actor, but it's a long shot. And I agree with shadowkat, it would be shameful if the musical episode isn't nominated.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, I just hope BtVS manages to get ONE acting nom before series' end! -- Dochawk, 09:52:18 06/25/02 Tue
For Emmy Consideration Videotapes for the actors come from their publicists. The actor and publicist decide together what category they want to be considered for and what 2 episodes they will submit. They usually choose episodes that show contrasting acting abilities. The network will then support the actor by sending out the tapes. Thats why you will get 5 or 6 different episodes available on the net. Unfortunately, Emmy voters frequently don't take their responsibility seriously and don't watch the episodes, they just vote.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sad Fact Is . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:43:14 06/25/02 Tue
The sad fact is that you have to be a very well known actor to get an emmy nomination. Of all the cast, Sarah Gellar is most likely because she has a lot of name recognition.
James Marsters definitely deserves Best Supporting Actor, but probably won't even be nominated because few non-BtVS fans have heard of him. Though, I would reccomend Smashed or Seeing Red to judge him by.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> And all this time I thought they limited the actors to a single submission ... -- Exegy, 14:14:02 06/25/02 Tue
Thanks for the one-up, Dochawk. I guess I'd alter my hypothetical submissions accordingly:
SMG: Normal Again and Bargaining II. The second hour of Bargaining features SMG as both perky 'bot and soul-ravaged Buffy ... two more contrasting styles could not be found. Great range in a single episode.
AH: Two to Go and Grave. Alyson really comes through in the finale. As Willow, she projects seething jealousy towards Buffy and Giles, undeniable menace towards the geeks and Dawn, and bottomless self-loathing towards herself and her world. Wonderful ... er, terrible.
JM: Definitely SR and AL. Two contrasting approaches for the same character.
EC: Hell's Bells and Entropy. Great comic and tragic delivery.
ASH: Flooded and maybe TR. Nice timing in both.
NB: Entropy and SR (counting on everyone already seeing OMWF).
MT: SR and Bargaining I. Dawn's cuddling up to the shell of the Buffybot is just precious.
But of course, no one would probably review all these episodes, so this is all moot speculation and opinion on my part. Oh well, fun for me.
[> Wait, wait, wait...JM dated Mercedes?! -- cjl, 11:36:53 06/24/02 Mon
I'll never be able to look at those Season 4/5 episodes again without imagining some RL backstory in the Spike/Harmony scenes. (I have the same problem with the movie "All of Me." Steve Martin and Victoria Tennant displayed zero on-screen romantic chemistry--but they got married. And then divorced. I can never watch the movie without wondering what went right in the first place....)
[> [> LOL! -- shadowkat, 12:10:19 06/24/02 Mon
Isn't it interesting that actors with no on-screen chemistry date and get married and the one's with on-screen
chemistry are either just friends or well, definitely not?
Debra Winger and Richard Gere hated each other in Officer
and A Gentleman but had the best chemistry.
Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise had zero on-screen chemistry.
So little in fact, people were convinced he was gay after seeing Eyes Wide Shut.
Spike had major chemistry with Buffy, Dru, even Angel,Dawn Xander, and Willow but very little with HArmony...IMHO
so one wonders...maybe there's something the camera adds that we don't see?
(Of course must admit a bias here - the two characters I like the least on Btvs are Harmony and Warren. Harmony sets my teeth on edge and Warren makes me cringe.)
PS: didn't get that philly job, so still in nyc and on the market
[> [> [> Re: LOL! -- leslie, 12:55:59 06/24/02 Mon
This is my theory (which is mine): you always start hearing about romantic entanglements/development of relationships between actors on movies that often stink. Is it that the work is so bad and/or boring that they have to amuse themselves otherwise? (Driven to Love by Bad Writing?) (Though I have to say, I think there *is* chemistry between Steve Martin and Victoria Tennet in LA Story--which was made when they were already married--not so much in All Of Me--which is when they met. In All Of Me, though, there is plenty of chemistry, not to mention sharing of body parts, between Martin and Lily Tomlin! So go figure.)
[> [> [> [> Agree with your take! Felt the same -- shadowkat, 13:01:28 06/24/02 Mon
And can you tell I'm bored at work today...LOL!
[> [> [> [> [> Sorry to hear about the Philly job, 'kat. Keep plugging.... -- cjl, 14:00:31 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> Ditto that. -- Exegy, 19:27:58 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> LA Story -- Dochawk, 13:26:16 06/24/02 Mon
Wait, are you saying you thoguht LA Story was a bad movie? its on my list of top 5 of all time.
[> [> [> [> [> No, I *love* LA Story. -- leslie, 14:33:47 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> I'm thinking HLOD... -- LeeAnn, 13:03:16 06/24/02 Mon
Their scenes in Harsh Ligh of Day are so playful. Especially when they are having any kind of physical interaction. Maybe it was then and added a little spice to their scenes.
Here's another interview that was online but no longer is.
James Marsters
You've had the big musical and the big love scene - how did fans react?
I don't know, frankly. To do that, I would have to get online and spend hours finding out, which means I would spend hours hearing that I'm all that. And it can warp your brain, after five years. It doesn't mean I'm not appreciative, it doesn't mean I don't like the fan mail.
Most of your fans believe you're English anyway.
Yeah, sorrry guys (laughs)
Do you have time for anything other than your music and Buffy?
Too many girlfriends! (laughs)
Is that a problem?
Yeah, I"ve discovered that it is! (Laughs). No, it has taken a lot of energy up, and I think I should put a little more into the show.
Have you had any French girlfriends?
For a little while when I was in France last year (laughs).
Yeah, that was nice actually. Good kissers.
German girlfriends?
A German girlfriend, when I was in England, for a night. (laughs). Bonn, beautiful girl. Nothing wrong with English girls (laughs), I had an English girlfriend!
OK then - what about Aussie girls? I have to get that in!
Very beautiful, but at the time a brought another girl with me to that function, so I was with someone from America, at that point. This is starting to sound really bad, man (laughs). Yikes!
Isn't it sweet how he calls them "girlfriends"?
[> [> Good? -- aithen_ravenwind, 00:06:31 06/26/02 Wed
She was 18, he was 38. That is just sad.
[> Twelve takes!? -- Traveler, 01:59:02 06/25/02 Tue
I have to wonder if JM was being a little... deliberately obtuse. If I could have 12 takes worth of kissing SMG, I would certainly do it :)
[> [> Re: Twelve takes!? -- Rufus, 05:32:23 06/25/02 Tue
Yes,....."Hold on.....I think my lip slipped....I could do this shot soooo much better......Let's try again!"......must have been a long day......;)
Spike's 10,000 ways -- Off-kilter, 04:57:53 06/24/02 Mon
Since you didn't eat me alive with my first post, I decided to see if I could risk posting another long ramble. Once again it is an excerpt from my "brain spills" that I sent to shadowkat, and she has been kind enough to encourage me to put it out here. I'm posting this before I change my mind.
*********************************
"If at first you don't succeed, try and try again" -maxim
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting the result to be different." -unknown author
Spike is often described as the most inconsistent character in Buffyverse. The writers have been chastisized for flipping his reactions from one extreme to the other with each episode. While the writers have been a bit heavy-handed and fumbled more than once, I think he was supposed to be erratic this season.
IMO the reason that he has been all over the place in his behavior is that he is trying to reach Buffy through different approaches. Being quiet and supportive got Buffy to be with him, but not the way he wanted her. It couldn't last forever. Patience is not the boy's strong point, and he's NEVER known when to keep his mouth shut in the past, so you have to give him credit for even TRYING this technique :-D. Pretty impressive that he kept it up till OMWF cursed him into singing how frustrated he was with the situation. Irritated with her running from his feelings, he turns away from Buffy and gets quite a response from her! A full on lip-lock as the curtain fell.
Abandon prior plan of patience, this is the goods! So he pursues, because something changed, right? Well, not enough. So when he tries to get her to acknowledge the new playing field in TR he gets slapped down. Once again, he pulls back, turning away from her in the Bronze. Once again, she lays it on him, hot and heavy.
Hmmm. See a pattern yet, Spiky boy?
Maybe, but it's sooo hard to quit the Faith/Spike maxim, "want, take, have" that he has been following all of these years. So he pushes again, dancing the same steps and leading to the same response. He offers to change, gets whapped and strikes back reflexively. Nothing new. Except wait! No pain! What the hell? After a little regrouping, he decides to see what will happen if he explores this ability to fight Buffy. Be quiet - get overlooked. Pursue her - get shot down. Offer to change - get SMACKED down! She's refusing to react to anything else he is doing, what about this?!
And what a response he gets! Talk about positive reinforcement. Definitely pay dirt for the vamp in love/lust. This is not just a reaction, but almost EXACTLY what he thinks he wants from her.
**I always wondered what he would have done if she had refused to fight him. Maybe I'm over estimating Spike, but I don't think he would have continued to hit her. Especially since we never saw him try to hurt her physically after that night. Even in SR he wasn't trying to HURT her, although that is what happened.**
So he gets a response from sex and Spike is comfortable with his skills in that area. She draws back again, but he knows the field of play has been irrevocably changed. He's even smug enough to wait for her to come to him for once. He's richly rewarded for it in Gone; she is all over him - can't get enough. And he revels in it until Xander shows up and reminds Spike that he doesn't really have her. Spike is not a half-way person if he can help it. He pulls away, kind of disgusted with himself and the situation, and sends Buffy packing for the first time ever. She is less than thrilled with this development, attempts to change his mind, pouts when he insists, and as far as we can tell she goes after him again.
Hey Spike! That pattern I was talking about! Do you see it NOW?
Maybe. But after waiting so long for any kind of reaction from her other than Kick-the-Spike or Puppy-dog-confidant, giving up something that feels this good is hard. Perhaps it will lead to something new. Maybe she'll see that she can love him if he shows her how good he is in the sack. Showing her that he was willing to change as a person didn't seem to work.
**By the way, this is the reason why he didn't bother to continue the "good" program. Buffy told him repeatedly that he couldn't change when he offered to try. She rarely rewarded him for his attempts at good. In Triangle he even gripes, "what does it take?!" In his view, she was responding to his seduction, not his redemption, so why waste time and energy doing that goody-goody stuff? It wasn't getting him anywhere with her. So doing indirectly evil things like sell demon eggs was perfectly reasonable in his mind. It's just that the writers stumbled in showing:
1) that Spike was actually the Doctor (he would never choose that name. Doc was responsible for his greatest failure and shame)
2) that Spike had actually rationalized this to himself.**
Now he's got her in his bed and he should be happy, right? No. He wants her fully, madly, deeply in love. Like him. What would it take? What about conversation and trust talk? Um, a big Negatory from Buffy. Any fluff or time for contemplation and she kicks him in the head and runs off with her "virtue a'fluttering". Attempting to be good didn't draw her in, what about appealing to the darkness within her? If she won't believe that he could be good, maybe she could accept that SHE could be bad. Unfortunately, she doesn't put the kibosh on this in the Bronze and instead lets doubt creep into her mind. She thinks, uneasily, that he might be right.
In DT she thinks she kills an innocent. Oh God! She's just like Faith! No, she'll make amends. She's not rational at this point. Giles has told her that things like this have happened in the past for Slayers, but she feels her only recourse is to go to jail like any other murderer. Spike tries to stop her, tries to reason with her. He just doesn't understand her agony; she's not in any state to explain. He's there. He's in her way. He's everything that she doesn't want to be. Violence is how she solves a lot of her problems. Old habits die hard. So she attacks him - not to kill him, but to beat the evil out of him. Out of her. She is exactly like Faith in this scene.
Okay. The whole "convince her to accept the darkness inside" didn't work, so he tries to nonchalantly step back to the previous level of hanging around her and being sexually available. He is unhappy with getting the crap beat out of him, yes. But it's not something new in the relationship, just turned up a notch or three. And he thought it would help her. So, aside from a snide remark or two, he's willing to let it slide if she is. And boy, is she ready to forget about it!
Then Riley returns. Spike doesn't know about it when Buffy visits him. He's ready to play the sex game if that is what it takes for her to come to him. Imagine his shock and delight that she wants to hear talk of love! Maybe this was how he should have been playing it all along? Of course, Riley shows up and Spike instantly understands why Buffy wanted him to want her. It's not about Buffy changing how she feels about Spike; it's all about Buffy being insecure now that the ex has returned. No wonder he's all in-your-face and snarky to Riley. It's covering up a HUGE amount of pain and fear. And Buffy does nothing to reassure him. When she expresses her disgust about the scheme, he is shocked. He thought he knew what she was looking for in him. And it wasn't being GOOD. It shakes his preconceptions of their relationship to its core.
When he goes back to his crypt, more than just his furniture has been destroyed. The small amount of control and freedom he felt in the relationship is gone. It was all an illusion. Something in him breaks. Buffy arrives and he is resigned to losing her to Riley. When she says Riley left, he barely looks up from the wreckage to offer her the only thing she has ever wanted from him. She starts to break up with him again. This is familiar; he can handle it. But she breaks the pattern. She isn't yelling. She's not in denial. She's acknowledging that they had something. Heat. Desire. And that it must end. Whoa! Not the response wanted or expected. So Spike back pedals, reminds her how good it was, tells her he'll take anything, anything at all. Ask for nothing. Just don't go. All for naught. She silences him with his worst fear.
Darn. Back to square one. Or is it minus 10? Anyone who's been sent back to the end of the line can tell you that it's one of the most frustrating things in the world. Especially when you are SURE that you see your goal *just* around the corner! He tries new ways to get her to react. Jealousy, that works. But it hurts him to see her hurt. Buffy is respectful and sweet in acknowledging his efforts. And love's bitch just melts and is sweet right back. Confused by her and unwilling to cause a scene after the most tender interaction they have had since OMWF, he leaves. In NA, he's still trying to keep that connection, and all seems well until the Scoobs show up. Frustrated, he lashes out at Xander, who, like Buffy, couldn't see the "good thing" they had.
Sweet, respectful ex didn't work, so he goes back to old habits and tries the pushy stalker persona again. He holds the threat of spilling all to her friends if she won't "come out" and publicly admit that what they had (hopefully still have, in his mind) meant something to her. Her taunt that his threat is hollow is grating and true. Even for our volatile vamp, these emotional swings are getting wildly out of control. Nothing he does seems be getting him to where he wants to be. And he has tried everything he can think of! He's as low as he's ever been.
This leads him to Anya and the futile attempt to do a Willow and "poof" the feelings away. Instead, the lovelorn pair commiserate in a drunken haze. Companionship, compassion, and desperate loneliness lead to a futile attempt to "move on" from their broken relationships. Afterwards, he nods to Anya, wordlessly offering her thanks and respect. Unfortuently, his last effort to control the roller-coaster ride that is his emotional state didn't work. What's left?
It's almost a relief when Xander tries to kill him. Why not? It would make the feelings stop. Rest in peace . . . or at least not be. Buffy and Anya stop Xander and Spike bonelessly sags to the ground. He's got nothing left to support him. It's not till Xander starts berating Anya that a niggling chivalry has him throw out a bone he knows will knock Xander off of browbeating her. It doesn't hurt that the info will hurt Buffy, but he almost seems ashamed of that fact.
So he goes back to what's left of his home to brood and drink. Dawn comes over and barely interrupts his sulk. She shocks him with the knowledge of his tryst with Anya. It bothers him. Her innocence and her support of him are some of the only bright spots left in his hovel of an unlife. What she thinks of him matters greatly. She berates him for treating Buffy wrong and leaves him to stew in regret.
Again, he decides to do something new. He goes to apologize. This time he doesn't expect to reconcile with Buffy, he's just attempting to make amends. He says that he wishes Xander had dusted him and gets a scrap of hope from her response. A little drunk and a lot lost, Spike panics when she reiterates that she doesn't love him. He snaps and tries to get her to respond to him the only way he knows how. Fighting and sex are the only ways she has allowed him to connect and he is desperate. He doesn't hear her pleas; he can only hear his own overwhelming flood of emotion. Kicked off of her, he is dismayed by what happened, what he did to her.
Totally confused, he goes home where Clem finds him in the throes of self-examination. What is wrong with him? Why does he feel this way? The guilt, the remorse. Totally at odds with the demon in him. What the hell is going on? Something has got to change! What more can a soulless fiend do?!
He's got to try something different. Something radical. Something no vampire has ever thought about or wanted before. Watch his face regain confidence and calm once he makes the decision. Things are GONNA change! He'll make sure of it or die trying. It really doesn't matter which. He's got a plan. It's all about the "fists and fangs" again. He's not afraid of a fight he might not win. He's a fighter; he'll fight for Buffy or go out with a BANG! not a whimper. HE'S GOT HIS ROCKS BACK!
"Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do in the first place doesn't mean it's useless....Surprises and reverses should be an incentive to great accomplishment. Results? Why, man, I have gotten lots of results! If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is just one more step forward.... There are no rules here, we're just trying to accomplish something. " - Thomas Edison
Yes! and Yea! It took me some time and the interview by JE to come to this conclusion. My first reaction to soul-having Spike was, "BOO, HISS!!!" But I've decided that other posters are right; the fact that he is *choosing* a soul shows that he has put himself on the path to redemption. Spuffy might be dead, but Spike's story will keep me glued next season.
Comments, questions, . . . catcalls?
I'm ready for you! *hiding in closet*
[> Great Essay. Totally agree. -- LeeAnn, 06:13:58 06/24/02 Mon
Buffy only offered positive reenforcement to Spike for rejecting her, turning away from her, violence and sex. Was she TRYING to get him to go bad? Training him to do just that by rewarding him when he did?
I'm not sure how I feel about the soul cause I'm afraid Spike died of it. Like I believe Angel and Angelus are two different people.
October will tell.
[> [> RE: Angel/angelus (comic suggestion..) -- shadowkat, 10:27:32 06/24/02 Mon
I just read an article on slayage about how in the recent
line of Angel comics that are co-written by Whedon, it
was suggested that the Gypsey curse had more in mind than just giving Angel a soul and that Angelus may not have actually gotten Liam's soul. So Angel may not be who he thinks he is.
If this is the case...methinks Spike will be different
from Angel in four ways:
1. Spike still has a chip
2. Willaim is nothing like Liam
3. Spike went after the soul, wasn't a curse and he did it as a direct result of attempting to rape Buffy (hey, this is what the writers said.)
4. Angel didn't get his soul, they cursed him with someone elses? While Spike actually did? So Angelus did die when he got cursed, maybe Spike didn't when he got his soul?
[> [> [> What a happy idea... -- LeeAnn, 12:52:07 06/24/02 Mon
Angel didn't get his soul, they cursed him with someone elses? While Spike actually did? So Angelus did die when he got cursed, maybe Spike didn't when he got his soul?
Oh cool. That would make me so happy. No dead Spike.
[> Re: Spike's 10,000 ways -- Liana, 06:14:14 06/24/02 Mon
Do not hide!! Very well thought out post. I love the way you have followed Spike's POV throughout. I admit I had a hard time following his choices during the season but after reading your post I see the writer's possible approach. PS I am with you on the Doctor Thing!
[> Re: Spike's 10,000 ways -- Caroline, 08:52:49 06/24/02 Mon
My brain is far too jet-lagged to make any sense right now, so I'll spare you my ramblings but just let me say how much I enjoy your prose style!
[> Re: Spike's 10,000 ways -- aliera, 09:01:48 06/24/02 Mon
Thanks for the essay, Off Kilter! Really enjoyed...any thoughts on where they might take hime next season?
[> [> Sure I have ideas! -- Off-kilter, 15:32:26 06/24/02 Mon
10,000 of 'em. All will be wrong. JW listens to my thoughts via radiowaves, cackles while rubbing his hands in fiendish glee, and takes the storylines and characters in directions skewed from my vision. I am being tested.
[> [> [> LOL -- Rahael, 16:31:29 06/24/02 Mon
Does he hear your thoughts via his elbow?
[> [> [> [> Silly woman. -- Off-kilter, 22:10:00 06/24/02 Mon
Don't you know that dental fillings are the classic thought receptor sites? I'm fiddling with my aluminum foil brain protector, still a few bugs. Hey, none of you get any ideas! Patent is pending.
[> Thanks for posting this ... ! Very enjoyable read. -- Exegy, 09:02:21 06/24/02 Mon
[> Re: Spike's 10,000 ways -- Wynn, 09:03:49 06/24/02 Mon
I enjoyed your essay very much. I like your analysis of Spike's erratic actions this season. It's a much better thought than ME had lost all sense of who the character was. I also agree with your points concerning Buffy and Spike's respective states of mind in DT and SR (I thought of Faith and the scene in Who Are You and its similarity to the alley scene in DT too.)
Like you, I am eagerly anticipating the continuation of Spike's journey in S7. :)
Wynn
[> Re: Spike's 10,000 ways -- Oneeyedchicklet, 09:58:58 06/24/02 Mon
Thanks for posting that great recap of Season 6 Spike! I agree with your conclusions and I emphatically agree about the naming of the "Doctor". I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what I didn't understand in that episode only to come to the conclusion that the writers dropped the ball. We have all been groomed to look for subtlety and when we are hit with a sledge hammer it confuses us.
[> Very good...! printed. -- shadowkat, 10:30:25 06/24/02 Mon
I printed it off to read later, although I think you already know my thoughts. ;-)
good post.
[> I must also add my praise to the growing list -- Dead Soul, 12:19:13 06/24/02 Mon
[> Great essay! Very enjoyable! -- Wizardman, 12:53:34 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> I love this! Very well thought out and written. -- t007, 13:46:33 06/24/02 Mon
[> Once Again its left to me to stand on a plank all alone -- Dochawk, 14:08:43 06/24/02 Mon
First off let me say this, I liked Spike, or I used to until I spent so much time defending Buffy in the face of Spike. yet he is a very interesting character and JM is marvelous in how he portrays him.
With that out of the way, I will say well written post, I don't agree with most of it. And that has to do with point of view. This is Buffy's journey, not Spike's. Everything in their relationship has to do with where the writers want Buffy to go, not Spike. seen from that viewpoint, Spike has to come off as inconsistent. Spike has never been that subtle or had any ability to formulate an effective plot, een when he wasn't castrated by the chip. And his base behavior is evil/chaotic. The writers tried to write that subtely but when it didnt work they slammed us over the head with it (rather clumsily I agree). But in a way they did a masterful job because within those rather restrictive constraints they still created a compelling, ambiguous and interesing character who can lead us on 10000 hours of debate.
[> [> Not alone, just so tired -- Earl Allison, 14:20:29 06/24/02 Mon
Dochawk,
You're not alone, but you're right (IMHO), the hero's journey is Buffy's.
Last I checked, the titular character was Buffy -- which is why I'm really concerned with all the people talking about a spinoff with Spike -- we already have a show featuring a vampire -- it's called "Angel." :)
When I say tired, I mean it. I'm tired of trying to make alternate points that are, for many, unheard. While I respect most other views; the clumsy handling of Spike by writers (again, IMHO) coupled with the fanbase is making it less and less worth even putting forth my views on this. It generally only gets met with venom.
So I'm there if you need me, Dochawk -- you just need to ask. I'll try not to be so silent in the future.
"So, you see, what I told you WAS true, from a certain point of view."
And old Obi-Wan's statement is more and more true of interpretations of Buffy's cast lately -- what view do you want to expound, and no doubt you'll find what you need :)
Take it and run.
[> [> [> There's more of us than you'd think! I hope! -- Rahael, 14:33:59 06/24/02 Mon
So many great posters write on Spike, so eloquently. And the Spike fan base is very large. I enjoy Off-Kilter's posts, just as much as I enjoy a lot of other great regulars who are Spike fans.
But after awhile I just get a surfeit of Spike, Spike Spike and my generic reaction (and I'm stealing this phrase from someone who had better remain nameless).
"Great post, but the Spike part makes me yak"
Actually, I wouldn't mind if we got snarky Spike (usually in Mal's posts by the way) but it's Spike the romantic tragic hero that induces the yakky reaction. Just personal taste, guys.
No need to go run and hide Off Kilter! I'm the one who'll need protection now, lol.
Okay, I'm quaking in my boots now........
[> [> [> [> Are those your stylish, yet affordable boots Rah? -- Dochawk, 15:11:52 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Always stylish, but sometimes unaffordable........ -- Rahael, 15:34:53 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Count another among the less than Spike-centric -- Jane's Addiction, 15:49:21 06/24/02 Mon
The actor is great and, up until this season, I've always liked the character. But something about Spike has left me kind of cold this season. I've just grown rather weary of him for some reason.
I don't really subscribe to the idea that the show is all about Buffy's journey. I tend to look at it as being a journey for each character, but that's just my perspective. I haven't quite been able to put my finger on what it is about Spike that hasn't resonated with me as much this season.
It's troubling.
Maybe his cheekbones have gotten too darn high.
Regardless, it was a great post, Off-Kilter.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Count another among the less than Spike-centric -- Dochawk, 17:14:30 06/24/02 Mon
I agree there are other journeys. But each is subservient to Buffy's. And since Spike's job has always been Buffy's foil (since he first appeared in fact in School Hard), Spike is particularly beholden to this problem. I think getting his soul will free him from the Buffystory chain thats been around his neck, which will allow some other developments. He is the season 7 wildcard ranging anywhere from lovesick puppy to season 7 big bad or anywhere in between (though I doubt he will ever be between the sheets with Buffy again, see below)
I, too loved the character Spike prior to this season. And I like the story he went on, I really think it was the fan adoration, at the expense of Buffy, that made me go back and look at him. There are some other reasons, but they are personal (which have nothing to do with Spike, just the bad boy image he presents).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm sorry, I just like Spike so much more than Buffy.... -- Forsaken, 18:36:49 06/24/02 Mon
I really do. I love Buffy, she's the title character and we couldn't have the show without her. But seriously Spike is cooler, more confusing, more interesting. I like the fight scenes with him more (though I prefer the scenes with both of them) than I like Buffy's fights.
I also disagree that the characters all do nothing but further Buffy's story. It's true, but there is more to it than that because Buffy also serves to further the other characters' stories in the same way. And truthfully, I'd rather hear about Spike's journey than Xander the carpenter, or Willow the recovering Big Bad. I just hope the Soul doesn't change the boy too much.
[> [> [> [> Only two people I know who use the word "yak" -- Masq, 15:56:15 06/24/02 Mon
Me and Cordelia. Anyone else you know, Rah? : )
[> [> [> [> [> I'm sure I don't know what you mean! -- Rahael, 16:34:34 06/24/02 Mon
But it's quite obvious that it's a word reserved for the very cool ;)
[> [> [> [> [> [> doc, i hope your plank is very wide and over water, what with Rah standing beside you, yakking..:) -- zargon, 17:27:04 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Xander did (Killed by Death) -- Vickie, 18:31:41 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> I prefer the word "yark." It sounds uglier somehow. -- Forsaken, 18:38:42 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> well, I guess you will be disappointed with next season -- iffy, 15:32:27 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> Oh? Do you know something we spoiler trollops don't? (possible season 7 spoilers) -- Dochawk, 16:30:33 06/24/02 Mon
Do you know something? We'd love to hear it. Just make sure ya label your post as a spoiler.
I would be very suprised for many reasons if Spuffy recurs. It doesn't advance Buffy's journey in the slightest. it sends a bad message (that its alright to go out with the "man" who tried to rape you) and three, talk about Angel redux, which Joss continues to say he doesn't want. Now I am perfectly aware that Joss lies so I am not sure if I buy that reason. SMG has been quoted in interviews that she does not expet them to get together again (although JM seems to imply they might). In addition, Jane Espenson recognizes the difficulty in bringing a woman and her would be rapist together as a couple. Most importantly, Buffy has made great strides at least recognizing what love is about and unless Spike got a great deal of maturity with his soul (and he is something different than the romantic loser that William is shown to be), Buffy has moved beyond what Spike has to offer.
[> [> [> [> Re: Oh? Do you know something we spoiler trollops don't? (possible season 7 spoilers) -- Arethusa, 17:25:38 06/24/02 Mon
I'm just afraid ME'll rationalize that since Spike is gone (gone, I tell you! Just as gone as Angelus!), a new Buffy/FormerlySpike relationship would be okay. It would be a relief for almost everyone if Buffy had a break from boyfriend trauma.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Oh? Do you know something we spoiler trollops don't? (possible season 7 spoilers) -- dochawk, 18:04:02 06/24/02 Mon
I hope and pray your wrong, but if they do they will get a hailstorm from the women's groups and they are already aware of it. They can't plead ignorance this time like they did with Tara's death. JE was very specific about the problems it poses and compared it to Luke and Laura (where this was done specifically because the fans asked for it, but soaps are written for fans without thought to plot). And there was a reaction about it even without the PC that exists now. Unfortunately sometimes Joss likes to get in controversy. But, it would have to be a pretty compelling reason to do it and I just don't see how it could be for Buffy's growth.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oh? Do you know something we spoiler trollops don't? (possible season 7 spoilers) -- Elizabeth, 18:15:05 06/24/02 Mon
The thing is, Jane also said that SouledSpike can have sex without losing his soul which seems to me to be a red flag that they tend to pair SouledSpike off with *somebody*. Of course, it could be Halifrek or Drusilla but you never know...
[> [> [> [> [> I think you'll be happy to know . . . -- Off-kilter, 03:25:54 06/25/02 Tue
that ME is implying that Buffy will be boyfriend free for most of Season 7. 'Course, they could be lying. Fine by me if they don't try Spuffy again. It hurt to watch.
[> [> Hero's Journey and over-saturation of Spike -- Off-kilter, 19:57:33 06/24/02 Mon
I'm glad you found my post well written and I'm sorry that you are tired of people promoting Spike's story over Buffy's. I won't apologize for viewing the Hero's Journey through the lens of Spike. The show is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but it is an ensemble show, not just a one-note song. Sure, as I noted in my comic string, Buffy is the fulcrum, -the base from which everything springs. But that does not mean that the writers don't mean to make every main character's story (and many of the minor ones) less meaningful. ME tried, successfully, to make us resonate with aspects of all of the SG and even the several villains in the Buffyverse. They aren't just characters -they're people. They're family. No matter what anyone says, you will always like some members of your family better than others. You may love them all, but loving does not always equal feelings of kinship and camaraderie.
Buffy is close to my heart. I feel for her when she hurts and cheer for her when she triumphs. But she's not the reason I'm crazy about this show. If she was the one and only reason this show worked then Anne should have drawn me in when I watched it a few years ago. It didn't. If it weren't for the TV being on FX when WAH came on last Nov, I would never have this addition. The relationships, the loves, the lives of everyone in BtVS are the point for me. Once, I felt the story through the filter of Willow. Right now, I happen to see it through Spike.
"I'm not your sidekick"- Willow. She's not. None of them are. Every person has to undertake the hero's journey. This isn't about one blonde girl saving the world, it's about how we all contribute in our day to day struggles to keep the forces of evil from overtaking us.
"When I was young, I saw the troubles of the world and vowed to change them all. As an adult, I quailed at the impossibility of the task and decided to fix my country instead. As maturity set in, I found no one willing to see the rightness of my convictions and swore to correct my local community. Old age found me bitter with the knowledge of my failure. I spent my last years struggling to show my family the light. When death came to my door, to my chagrin, I realized that the only one I could have changed was myself, and from there the rest would have followed" -my misquote of someone wise
[> [> [> Supposed to be under the Plank thread above -- Off-kilter's all thumbs, 19:59:12 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> Re: Hero's Journey and over-saturation of Spike -- Rufus, 01:45:20 06/25/02 Tue
Buffy is close to my heart. I feel for her when she hurts and cheer for her when she triumphs. But she's not the reason I'm crazy about this show. If she was the one and only reason this show worked then Anne should have drawn me in when I watched it a few years ago. It didn't. If it weren't for the TV being on FX when WAH came on last Nov, I would never have this addition. The relationships, the loves, the lives of everyone in BtVS are the point for me. Once, I felt the story through the filter of Willow. Right now, I happen to see it through Spike.
Hey, fair enough that you see the Hero's Journey more through Spike at this point. Buffy is the "Hero" protagonist of the show, and in being the main "Hero" she is judged for faults that many may shrug past another character. It can be hard to love or even respect the almost too perfect "Hero" that is Buffy. Then there is Spike, imperfect at times pathetic, yet endearing Spike. He is a "geek" in tough guys clothes, he cries when he is hurt, and he makes mistakes, lots of them. He may be closer to a real person than Buffy, who has saved the world and in her seeming invincibility, is harder to feel sorry for, her abilities making her less than common. Buffy is still the show for me, her lovers less important than where she ends up in her journey. I love Buffy the best because I understand that to be the "hero" the one who saves instead of is saved, can make for a lonely life. What we excuse in lesser characters and villians is not in Buffy. So, go ahead and see the Heroes Journey through Spike, if people don't like it they can write about another characters journey...they are all heroes, except for those very bad villian types....;)