June 2002 posts

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The "Seven Deadly Sins" in the Buffyworld -- Carol, 02:34:52 06/20/02 Thu

I got to thinking about how the "Seven Deadly Sins" fit into the Buffyworld.
I kept my thoughts simple mainly to get your thoughts and save on typing.
I wrote down the sins (in order) and the virtues that one uses to fight off the vice.
Or in other words examples of how the villain (vice) was defeated (virtue)

1) Pride/Humility: Adam certainly had his share pride. He thought he was the perfect being; he played God with other species. Buffy fought this by humbling herself and accepting help from Giles, Xander and Willow. She let her three friends become one with her strength.

2) Envy/Love: Faith was envious of everything Buffy had to the point of taking over her body and life. What brought Faith back was the love she was shown by Buffy and also Angel.

3) Wrath/Kindness: Willow was taken over by her anger (righteous or not) over Tara's death. What brought her back was Xander and his kindness and patience with her.

4) Sloth/Zeal: Glory wasn't exactly lazy but she had others do the work for her. Buffy showed zeal by knowing the right path was to sacrifice herself for the world.

5) Greed/Generosity: Angel wanted the world for humans destroyed. Buffy thought she had control over the situation but realized that she needed to let go of the responsibility she felt in Angel's turning evil. When she battled this she was able to do what needed to be done.

6) Gluttony/Temperance: The Master wanted everything his way and was unforgiving when it came to failure. Buffy accepted her natural limits by facing her eminent death and defeated him in spite of her fear.

7) Lust/Self Control: Spike lusted after the power of the Slayer. At first he wanted to kill her then later the lust uncontrollably turned as a way to show his love. Buffy could see that it wouldn't last and had to break it off or be consumed.

I am open to any thoughts you have on the subject. Please add villains that you think fit the vice and relate it to the virtue.
A Little Bit of Soul - S6-S7 Spoilery Speculation -- Darby, 07:48:17 06/20/02 Thu

I read with interest the thread on the soul in the Buffyverse, but what really got me to thinkin' were the comments made by Joss at the TV Academy thing this past weekend. I've got some points to make to set up a conclusion:

1 - Joss' mythologies are self-contained with influences that are wide-ranging and often details that are unlike any religious interpretation of our world. This opens up the definitions and capabilities of a "soul."

2 - According to him, the soul is at best "a moral compass" that can be defaulted either for us or agin' us ("good" or "evil" seems very human perspectivey here, which fits with recent developments on the shows).

3 - In the case of vampires, we have been shown repeatedly that broad aspects of the original human - memories and such - remain, and many people have pointed out that the vampires may be a dark reflection of the original personality with that "compass" reset. Angel was vengeful where Liam was resentful, cautious where Liam was fearful, and showed aspects of the additional experiences of Angel, the passion turned sadism, etc; Spike showed aspects of William the B-A Poet with the internalized rage at his mockers externalized. But the "essence" of the original persons remained.

4 - The only case we know of up 'til now of a vampire being resouled was Angelus-Angel, and the assumption was that Angel got his soul back. But did Liam reappear, even a Liam-Angelus persona hybrid? No, Angel seems a completely distinct personality from the original human, who would not likely have become a Champion.

Okay, here we go - I believe that the Buffyverse system involves some psychic energy called a "soul" that is automatically a part of humans from birth through death, but which holds little actual identity (vampire-demon souls may again be a flip side of this). When Angel, and now Spike, received a "soul" they have not been given their old part of this empathetic continuum (I guess this fits the "group soul" concept that was discussed for demons in the soul thread), but just had their connection reestablished in a way that, in Angel at least but less so in the maybe-incomparable Darla (I'm assuming that she was physically human but with a trapped demon soul, which may be a radical interpretation of the text), has allowed them to subvert the demon influence of callousness (unless they have a bunch of evil lawyers confined to a room). Piece of evidence: the device used to trap "Angel's soul" for Willow's spell is a very common piece, very nonspecific for what seems a pretty specific job if it's supposed to snag Liam's soul from wherever for transfer. Problem: what happened to Buffy in "Heaven" may not correlate well. At least I can say that we don't really know what happened to her there, or what form she was in, so it can't really contradict.

Joss says that Spike won't be Angel, and that James will be playing a part unlike any he has ever played before. This will work if he becomes Spike with a soul better than if he becomes Spike with William's soul. And of course the question is, how much of a change will that be over the Spike we know and sometimes love?

Questions? Comments?
[> Hmmm....interesting...I'll have to give this one a while to sink in! -- O'Cailleagh, 08:37:47 06/20/02 Thu

[> Re: A Little Bit of Soul - S6-S7 Spoilery Speculation -- Wisewoman, 09:04:45 06/20/02 Thu

Joss says that Spike won't be Angel, and that James will be playing a part unlike any he has ever played before. This will work if he becomes Spike with a soul better than if he becomes Spike with William's soul. And of course the question is, how much of a change will that be over the Spike we know and sometimes love?

Interesting...I interpret it the opposite way. I think the reason that Spike won't be Angel is that Angel got a soul from the gypsy curse and Spike got his soul from the cave demon. In fact, the demon's exact words were, Your soul is returned to you.

I agree that Angelus with Liam's soul would not have become a champion. I think Angel consists of the Angelus demon, Liam's memories, and an unidentified soul (which I think of as the essence of what makes him "Angel").

However I anticipate seeing Spike with William's soul in Season 7 and I believe that will create an extremely interesting character and plot line.

;o)
[> [> Re: A Little Bit of Soul - S6-S7 Spoilery Speculation -- Darby, 09:29:40 06/20/02 Thu

I hadn't connected the quote - that does create a hole...

Maybe it was a New Yawk cave demon? Y'know, a figure of speech, "I gotcher soul right here -!"

This leads to another biting question - how would this cave demon, apparently on the Dark Side of Life, be able to get William's soul? Willy seemed a decent guy (he thought so) and presumably his soul would have been some heavenly sort of place if that's the way it works (oh no! this won't be Angel Again, it'll be Buffy Redux, and Spike'll be all sulky next season!). But can anybody put in a magical requisition for a specific soul if they fill out all the paperwork? Maybe all the Skip-level security is reserved for the bad guys...
[> [> [> Evil Demons -- shygirl, 09:46:13 06/20/02 Thu

I agree that Spike is going to get William's soul... but here's my question. Over and over I've read that Joss and the others lie to protect the storyline and throw everyone off track and into deep discussion. Question: Do we KNOW that just because the script say's "evil demon" that Lurky is truly an EVIL demon or does he just LOOK like one and the term "evil demon" is merely a descriptor of his appearance and purposefully left in the script in throw everyone off track? Maybe in reality he's a neutral demon and collects all the souls stripped from the vampires! That would allow him to give Spike a specific soul.
[> [> [> [> Soul Collector -- dream of the consortium, 10:42:50 06/20/02 Thu

First off, that sounds like a great name for a funk album...

Okay, so if there were a big weird green-eyed neutral demon who holds all the vamp souls - could Buffy make him give them all back? Buffy the Soul-Restorer?

It seems appropriate that the souls should not be in heaven - after all, that kind of takes the tragedy out of it. Hell seems a little unfair for those who did not choose to be turned (oh, but is there anyone who does not choose to be turned on some level? Drusilla, arguably, having been driven mad.) A demon-controlled limbo makes sense - after all, these were people who died before their "time."

I definitely agree with Wisewoman that Spike is going to get William's soul. How that will paly out (same old Spike or completely William or Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Big Bad) is another question. I am pretty sure whatever I bet on will not happen. I have had exactly zero luck with predictions.

Which reminds me - wasn't there a contest for season six predictions back in September? Has anyone gone back and looked to see if anyone got anything right?
[> [> [> [> Soul Collector -- dream of the consortium, 10:51:58 06/20/02 Thu

First off, that sounds like a great name for a funk album...

Okay, so if there were a big weird green-eyed neutral demon who holds all the vamp souls - could Buffy make him give them all back? Buffy the Soul-Restorer?

It seems appropriate that the souls should not be in heaven - after all, that kind of takes the tragedy out of it. Hell seems a little unfair for those who did not choose to be turned (oh, but is there anyone who does not choose to be turned on some level? Drusilla, arguably, having been driven mad.) A demon-controlled limbo makes sense - after all, these were people who died before their "time."

I definitely agree with Wisewoman that Spike is going to get William's soul. How that will paly out (same old Spike or completely William or Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Big Bad) is another question. I am pretty sure whatever I bet on will not happen. I have had exactly zero luck with predictions.

Which reminds me - wasn't there a contest for season six predictions back in September? Has anyone gone back and looked to see if anyone got anything right?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Soul Collector -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:54:42 06/22/02 Sat

First, Buffy couldn't restore every vampire's soul because it took VERY difficult trials to win one soul. It would be impossible to do that for even one clan of vampires, let alone all in existance.

2nd, what fate is worse than death?

3rd, very few choose to be turned. While William and Liam seemed to be willing, they didn't have a clue what was going on. They probably just thought it was very weird sex.

4th, why does it have to be a force for good that returns a soul? The cave demon was like many traditional demons in that he must honor a bargain, even if it goes against his desire for evil. He promised to give Spike his soul back if he compleated the trials, so he was forced to do so. In fact, the demon may be kind of like the vengeance demons, in that he has no powers outside of granting wishes.
[> [> Re: A Little Bit of Soul - S6-S7 Spoilery Speculation -- Tymen, 13:27:33 06/20/02 Thu

I agree that Angelus with Liam's soul would not have become a champion. I think Angel consists of the Angelus demon, Liam's memories, and an unidentified soul (which I think of as the essence of what makes him "Angel").
----------
I disagree. I believe Angelus had Liam's soul returned to him. For the first 90 years of souled unlife. Angel felt sorry for himself and stayed below the radar. That would appear to be the Liam soul at work. He didn't start on his path to becoming a champion until he saw Buffy and wanted to help her, because he fell in love with her.
[> Several different kind of souls -- Ete, 12:39:56 06/20/02 Thu

I propose on this topic another angle of analysis. Lots of cultures believe the human being have several kind of "souls". Ancient egyptians said five, vodooo practicers IIRC believes in two. What about this is the case in BtVS ?
At no point we can observe that the soul-as-a-moral-compass serves also at a core of identity, quite the contrary. So what if there's at least two kind of soul, the conscience-soul that Vampire loose when they're being turned, and the essence-soul (that's what Willow called it in WML If i remember correctly, Buffy's essence) that holds the personnality ? There could be others, like the kind of soul Willow sends into the neither realms and that tara needs to anchor, for exemple.

thoughs ? comments ? questions ? :)
[> [> correction : i meant Who Are You, not WML -- Ete, 12:42:28 06/20/02 Thu

[> [> Re: Several different kind of souls -- O'Cailleagh, 16:07:36 06/20/02 Thu

Its not so much that there are different kinds of souls, its that there are several subtle bodies, the soul being one of them. Different cultures have different names for these, and other ways of describing them, hence the confusion.
[> [> [> obviously I used the word "soul" as meaning "subtle bodies" -- Ete, 08:16:58 06/22/02 Sat

Noxon Interview. Season 8 spoilers. -- LeeAnn, 11:10:09 06/20/02 Thu

9:00am ET, 20-June-02
Noxon Confirms Buffy Season 8

Despite rumblings that next season will be Buffy the Vampire Slayer's last, executive producer Marti Noxon told SCI FI Wire that she thinks an eighth season of the UPN show is likely, even though its star's contract expires after season seven. "I think that it's very likely there will be [a season eight]," Noxon said in an interview. "I'm not sure if Sarah [Michelle Gellar] will come back or not, but it's really up to UPN and 20th Century Fox if the franchise continues. It would be very hard to continue the show without her, but they might try."

Buffy the Vampire Slayer begins its seventh season in the fall-its second season on UPN, after five years on The WB. Noxon took over as executive producer in 2001, when creator Joss Whedon focused attention on the upcoming SF series Firefly, which debuts on Fox in the fall.
[> How could they? Season 8 Spoilers. -- LeeAnn, 11:26:44 06/20/02 Thu

If ME, UPN and Fox decided to continue Buffy the Vampire Slayer without SMG, how could they do it?

I realize that many people feel the show should end if Gellar leaves. No surprise that Spike is the irreplaceable element to me but if she leaves and they continue the show how could they do it?

1) Buffy the Vampire Slayer's Sister Dawn?

2) Buffy the Dead Vampire Slayer?

3) Buffy the Vampire Slayer's friends?

4) The Darin Stevens Ploy: Replace Gellar and hope no one notices.

5) Buffy and Someone switch bodies a la Buffy and Faith in "This Year's Girl" and "Who Are You?" This has the advantage that if Gellar wanted to come back, even just occasionally, they could do the switch again. Buffy would still be the Vampire Slayer, she would just look different. Everything else would be the same.

In recent interview shows Geller has made some remarks about how the producers of Buffy should pay her more. I think that she and ME must be DEEP into negotiations right now. I don't think she will come back because with Scoobie Doo doing so well right now her negotiating position is so strong that she probably wants more money than ME can pay. I think Noxon was sending a message.

But if she does leave, can BtVS continue?
What do you think?
[> [> Well they can't. Not under the same name at least -- maddog, 13:47:19 06/20/02 Thu

That's just that. You don't have Buffy the Vampire Slayer without Buffy herself. And if Fox and UPN even TRY to replace her no one will bother watching the show. I think Marti's trying to be hopeful they can pull Sarah back in, but if you listen to the actors(and let's face it, they are the ones that run that show) all I'm hearing is done at 7. And with the way the current story is going and what we hear about season 7...that's the best way to end it.
[> [> [> Time will tell... -- LeeAnn, 14:20:20 06/20/02 Thu

You're probably right. I can't remember any show replacing the lead and still being successful. No wait. NYPD Blue did. More than once. Three's Company lost one of their leads and was still sucessful for a long time and I didn't hate it any more than I did originally (ie, a lot).

If Marsters was still on it, I would watch. I'm sure all of his fans would. I sure most of SMG's fans wouldn't. Donno if it would work or not. I think that would depend on how much time and effort Joss put into it. It might be good just to continue it as "The Vampire Slayer Chronicles" or something equivalent. Then they could show more than one Slayer and could replace any of the cast that wanted to leave.
[> [> [> Re: Well they can't. Not under the same name at least (um..spoilers for Taggart!) -- O'Cailleagh, 15:18:23 06/20/02 Thu

We had a show here (in Britain that is) called Taggart, a gritty (!) Scottish police detective type show. Well, the actor playing Taggart (Ian McManus I believe) died and they continued the show without him, not replacing the character and without a name change, for a good few seasons...they may even still be doing it.
So, ME could carry on without SMG...course that'd be tacky. They could drop the Buffy part of the title though, just call it The Vampire Slayer....maybe even get ol' ED back in....
[> [> They could continue, but they probably shouldn't... -- ZachsMind, 00:16:33 06/21/02 Fri

I'm reminded of the BBC's approach to Doctor Who, where they created the 'regeneration' process where the same character could be played by up to twelve different actors in its lifespan. They kill the character off and he comes back looking remarkably different with a new personality but it's still the same Doctor Who. "This Year's Girl" and "Who Are You" set a precedent that in Buffy's reality, a person can change bodies and still be Buffy. They hire a new actress, write SMG's body out and the new body in, problem solved.

However, the audience would most likely be up in arms about this and very upset. The new Buffy would have to be exceptionally phenomenal to win over the audience. It would be the beginning of the end for the series and two or three years later if the show was still on the air, they'd wish they'd just quit when SMG did. A better idea would be to create a spinoff series for UPN using Spike, and then let any actors from Buffy migrate to either Spike's new series or Angel over at WB, or leave to do movies or other projects with the option to guest star in the future.

Bottom line? They should give SMG whatever she asks for in order to do season eight, OR just write season seven as the final season and let that be the end of it. Seven years is a great run for any tv series.
[> [> [> They could call it... -- GreatRewards, 14:05:54 06/21/02 Fri

Buffy the Vampire Slayer: The Next Generation.

and we could all start refering to it as BvTS:TNG, like the Trekkies do for ST:TNG!

OR they could just call it "Fray". :-)
[> [> [> [> "Hellmouth R.F.D." -- cjc36, 06:14:35 06/22/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> Tales of the Slayers? -- MaeveRigan, 06:52:56 06/24/02 Mon

I've got to agree with ZachsMind--they probably shouldn't continue BtVS without Buffy. Or, if SMG goes, everyone should go--thus my "Tales of the Slayers" suggestion, taking plotlines from the comicbooks and/or novelizations, maybe, though you'd probably have copyright problems all over the place. But it could be fun--a Buffyverse anthology series. I like it.
[> Glad to hear an eighth season is possible, but... -- Rob, 11:28:55 06/20/02 Thu

I'm not sure I'd want to see one with SMG. She's the glue that holds it all together, and I really don't know how enthusiastic I'd be about watching the show without her.

So, fingers crossed on an eighth season...and even more crossed on SMG renewing her contract, should an 8th season happen!

Rob
[> Anything but the show-that-wouldn't-end X-files syndrome -- Masq, 12:32:03 06/20/02 Thu

You lose the main character, you lose the soul of the show. Star Trek always knew when to take a bow, and the franchise is a masterpiece because of it.

Joss should put down his paint brush and let Angel carry on after BtVS season 7.

The gang (including Spike) could always do cameos or join the cast.
[> [> Re: Anything but the show-that-wouldn't-end X-files syndrome -- grifter, 13:47:57 06/20/02 Thu

Some cast members switching over to Angel sounds neat...I´d like to see some Spike/Angel interaction again...AND I always thought Cordy and Willow would make a much better couple then Cordy and Angel. ;)

As for Buffy going on without SMG...I don´t see how they could make it work. But since it´s in the hands of ME, I wouldn´t be surprised if they actually did make it work.
[> [> Another option (and a question for those with a good imagination))... -- Dichotomy, 13:59:53 06/20/02 Thu

I agree that using Buffy cast members on Angel would be a good way to continue to enjoy our favorite characters.

Or what about another spinoff? What happens next season could really set up one or more of our favorites to helm their own series. Hey, look at "Angel"! I think if "Ripper" turns out well, (if it ever gets going), we could see others.

Who would you like to see get their own series (as the character they currently play on Buffy, that is), and what would it look like? For example, Alyson Hannigan could protray a powerful witch who marries a mortal and must try not to use her powers in her day to day life as a housewife. But of course, she cannot resist from time to time and wackiness ensues...wait a minute, that sounds familiar. Anyway, what do the more creative minds out there think?
[> [> [> Re: Another option (and a question for those with a good imagination))... -- redcat, 15:12:11 06/20/02 Thu

At the farthest edge of my imagination, I could never imagine Willow as a housewife. Not even a wacky one.
[> [> [> Re: Another option (and a question for those with a good imagination))... -- O'Cailleagh, 15:31:49 06/20/02 Thu

I posted a very similar idea a little while ago, except with Anya and Xander in the Samantha and Darrin roles, D'Hoffryn and Hallie taking the places of Endora and Serena, Clem as their nanny (for their half-demon kids), and a resurrected Principal Snyder as their nosey neighbour.

Willow could join the cast of Charmed as another long lost sister (the power of how many now?)....
Ooooh! And Spike could get his own spin-off about a vampire-with-a-soul working towards redemption as a detective in LA...;)
[> [> [> not creative, but... -- Arethusa, 15:37:16 06/20/02 Thu

Andrew and Johnathan return to Sunnydale, where they become roommates who drive each other crazy because Johnathan always leaves his dirty clothes and dishes around, while Andrew is obsessively tidy, in the Freudian sense. No-that sounds familiar too....
[> [> [> [> I Love Anya? -- O'Cailleagh, 15:44:17 06/20/02 Thu

A zany comedy wherein Anya tries endlessly to be able to sing at her husband Xander's nightclub, while getting into bizarre and unlikely situations involving pies with her neighbour, and best friend Ethel...I mean Willow.
[> [> [> [> [> ROFLMAO...Great idea! :o) -- Rob, 17:21:58 06/20/02 Thu

[> [> [> And here's another! -- O'Cailleagh, 15:53:19 06/20/02 Thu

Picture it, a condo in Florida inhabited by Willow, Faith, Anya and Cordelia, all in their senior years and getting into amusing situations involving men. (One should be slutty, one dumb, one sarcastic with an klutz of an ex-husband, and one should be Sicilian)
After a number of successful seasons, one of them should leave and the rest should open a very unsuccessful hotel with the guy from the Cheech and Chong movies.
[> [> [> doesn't have to be all that familiar... -- anom, 21:47:58 06/20/02 Thu

"Alyson Hannigan could protray a powerful witch who marries a mortal and must try not to use her powers in her day to day life as a housewife. But of course, she cannot resist from time to time and wackiness ensues...wait a minute, that sounds familiar."

Heehee....Yeah, but if she's still playing Willow, & Willow is still gay, that mortal would be a woman...& the only place they could get married would be Hawai'i! Hey, & then they could go to Mt. Kilauea & celebrate the solstice with redcat! Um, in one of those ever-popular Realverse crossovers, yeah, that's it!

Happy summer solstice to redcat, O'Cailleagh, & all the other pagans out there! And to everyone else--after all, it's the solstice for everyone, whether or not you observe it as a holiday.
[> [> [> [> Why thankyou Anom, and a big ol' mazel tov to you...or something! ;) -- O'Cailleagh, 22:07:15 06/20/02 Thu

[> [> [> I'm Becoming Worried About the Amount of Spin Off Reports... -- AngelVSAngelus, 11:33:21 06/21/02 Fri

Apparently Noxon is working on ANOTHER. Personally, I think having more than one spin off is a bad idea. I was about Angel's show not just because I love the character and think his issues can carry one, but also because it spread the ensemble cast from Buffy a LITTLE BIT. Having more spin offs than that, especially two more, could spread the cast thin. Not to mention the fact that it gets redundant.
A relevant analogy, that works for those of you familiar with any Marvel comics (I stopped reading them and started reading Vertigo when I was ten, but anyway) would be the MULTITUDES of pointless X-Men spinoffs featuring characters that work better as part of an ensemble than solo. Who wants to read a comic following the solo exploits of ICE MAN?! Why is there a Gambit series? Wolverine, Storm, they've run down the whole damn list, and it ends up being a redundant tirade for more cash.
I don't want that to happen to Buffy.
Some might hate me for saying it, but I think ending at 7 is a great thing. Means it ended on a high note, something Joss Whedon should send Chris Carter a memo about.
If Buffy's ever in its tenth season, with our fav Slayer "missing" and the Scoob Gang spends an entire season searching for her, I'll have a heartattack and a seizure simultaneously.
[> [> It won't be Joss' decision, not ME's but Fox's -- Dochawk, 17:38:40 06/20/02 Thu

Remember this series is owned by Fox TV and Kuzui Productions. Fox Television can make the series without anyone if they want, but remember also, they have Marti Noxon signed on for three more years to write whatever they agree too. It may have been Joss' creation, but he doesn't own creative rights. I agree though, tough to call it Buffy the VS, how does Dawn the Vampire Slayer sound (or Faith the Vampire Slayer?)?
[> [> [> Oh, great... -- Rob, 19:40:34 06/20/02 Thu

FOX has no idea when to let a great show go out in dignity.

X-Files...they kept that chugging along long after it passed its peak, until it literally dropped dead...

Simpsons...okay, still a great show...but 15 seasons!! No matter how great a show is, that's still way too much.

I really hope they don't do that to "Buffy"...drag the carcass of a formerly great show, on year after year.

Rob
[> [> [> [> Re: Oh, great... -- Robert, 11:29:20 06/21/02 Fri

>> "FOX has no idea when to let a great show go out in dignity."

I'm not convinced we can attribute the perfidy committed by the FOX tv network to the FOX studio. They seem to be separate enough entities as to have their own characteristics. Regardless, the evil which FOX network has committed is enough to scare anyone. I greatly fear for "Firefly", especially given the rumors we are hearing about how FOX doesn't like the show. FOX isn't the only network to have milked a show long past it going dry, though do seem to do it to absurdity.

What really scares me about FOX is their propensity for killing shows in the middle of cliff-hanger episodes. They've done this to three sci-fi shows in their short existance as a network. FOX has zero loyalty to the viewers.
[> [> [> [> [> good Point, they are run by different people... -- Dochawk, 13:28:57 06/21/02 Fri

and if the brilliant person who runs the network hadn't truned Buffy down the first time, it probably would have been cancelled at the end of its first season. So we should be greatful.

but remember profit runs deep in the minions of Rupert Murdoch.
[> [> [> Hi Doc! -- Masq, 21:15:26 06/20/02 Thu

That's really sort of depressing. I suppose this is how Chris Carter got in the pickle he got into.
[> [> [> Sorry Dochawk...I think you're wrong. Why inside. -- shadowkat, 11:58:24 06/21/02 Fri

Actually I think he does own creative rights. Fox owns distribution rights. Which means Joss can stop it if and when he wants to.

I remember reading that when they did the initial contract, Joss insisted on retaining creative rights, while Fox could hold onto all distribution and derivative/reprint/reproduction rights. I'm in the rights business sort of...so know the difference. (Derivative is books, novelizations, action figures, comics,
scriptbooks, posters, t-shirts)

Distribution is the big money maker. Followed closely by Derivative. People who want to make tons of money are careful with these two. Joss and ME and if the actors were smart, all get a percentage, but Fox gets the big money. This is why they leaped to UPN. It was not so much Joss' decision as it was Fox's, because WB/TNT wanted to control syndication rights and limit reruns to TNT and WB. Fox wanted to show reruns on FX and Fox. UPN was the best deal because they were willing to give Fox control over syndication, all they wanted was to have first rerun distribution on four key episodes from Season 5 and Season 4 (HUSH, THE BODY, DRACULA VS BUFFY, THE GIFT - that they could rerun in year six) and they wanted control over Season 6-7 reruns for
the period of the contract. It's a two year contract btw.
not three. So, whether they have a Season 8 depends on several factors: 1. Joss Whedon. 2. If a network wants to distribute it. 3. PRoduction costs and values. 4. Actors
renewing contracts - all run out on year 7.

Now creative rights - means you control casting, scripts, production values, story, basically the nuts and bolts of the creative and artistic development of the show. Joss Whedon insisted on this after the horror that was the movie, a movie that he is still embarrassed about. That movie is an example of a writer not owning/retaining creative rights. He wrote the script, sold it, they could do whatever they pleased. After that fiasco, Joss told Fox, I'll only do the series if you let me retain total creative control - ie. creative rights. Artists who don't retain
creative rights live to regret it.

X-files - Chris Carter may not have retained Creative Control.

Now MArti works for ME, she is under contract to Joss.
Fox may have contracted her under a separate deal, I don't know. But from what I've read - she can't do anything with BTvs that he doesn't okay. She does not own the rights, he
does. At the beginning of year 6, she stated that he just extended her contract and gave her a promotion.

A good corollary is Stan Lee and Spiderman, Stan owns creative rights to Spiderman. MArvel can't change it without his okay. Since Stan is pretty much MArvel, doesn't really matter. But Joss Whedon an old comics fan learned from Stan Lee - you retain creative rights!!! There was a big skirmish a few years back when Claremont and Jim Lee
were writing and drawing for marvel. They created all these cool new characters only to discover Stan Lee and marvel owned them and retained creative control not Claremont and Lee. Pissed they took off and created WildStorm Comics where they could retain the rights.

It's a cool issue...that I've been following for awhile now.

That said I could be wrong about the Joss/Fox contract, haven't seen the actual document of course...but I doubt it, this fits with most of the interviews I've read over a four year period where Joss tells how he insisted on creative control. (He's not a lawyer so he'd use control over rights.)
Some of these comments appeared on Bronze Beta, some on Herc's site, some from magazines. Also independent articles on UPN/WB deal with fascinated me b/c I'm in the rights business.

Hope this assays some fears. Not that I mind MN. She just needs to polish her interview style, she has a tendency to
piss people off. ;-)
[> [> [> [> I hope your're right, SK -- Masq, 12:35:22 06/21/02 Fri

I stopped taping X-Files at the end of season 8. If Buffy goes on and on and gets bad like X-Files did, I would probably not do episode analyses for it.

Being kind of anal, I'd like my site to be a finished product, covering all of the Buffyverse eps/shows, but it's too much effort over bad material.
[> [> [> [> Re: Sorry Dochawk...I think you're wrong. Why inside. -- Dochawk, 13:23:50 06/21/02 Fri

yup you are right there is a difference between creastive rights (and cretive cotnrol) and distribution rights, unfortunately Joss doesn't control creative rights either. Kuzui Productions put up the money for the movie and retained creative rights for the product. Thats why Joss had no control over what happened with the movie. When it came to television, Joss and ME got creative control, but not creative rights (its extremely rare in tv or movies for the studio to give away creative rights, George Lucas is one of the few who can get away with it). In the end Fox and Kuzui own Buffy, not Joss. As for percentages Joss may get some, but the actors certainly don't yet. SMG was drilled about this insistantly by Howard Stern and she continually denied it. The Friends actors don't get percentages, but Kelsey Grammar does for Frazier.

As for why WB lost Buffy, had nothing to do with syndication rights but everything to do with not coming up with enough money. WB offered Fox 1.6 million an episode and would only guarentee one year. UPN offered 2.25 and a 2 year minimum committment. Lots of money different. And since Fox owns FX and they were already being sued by David Duchovney (and lost millions in the suit) because of abusing their position regarding syndie rights, their would have been an awful lot of risks for both sides to tying them together. And most syndie rights are sold 2 years in advance (for example Angel is currently being considered), but I wasn't a Buffyphile then.
[> [> [> [> [> Actually...off on that figure -- shadowkat, 08:52:06 06/22/02 Sat

"WB offered Fox 1.6 million an episode and would only guarentee one year. UPN offered 2.25 and a 2 year minimum committment. Lots of money different. And since Fox owns FX and they were already being sued by David Duchovney (and lost millions in the suit) because of abusing their position regarding syndie rights, their would have been an awful lot of risks for both sides to tying them together. And most syndie rights are sold 2 years in advance (for example Angel is currently being considered), but I wasn't a Buffyphile then."

Actually you're wrong on the money. According to the Variety article and two Wall Street Journal Articles the
WB came back with 2.1 million and that's why they were so pissed at Fox. It was the last part in the negotiations. All the
articles said the reason Fox went with UPN was distribution.
The money amounts were too close: 2.3 and 2.1??
Early articles said that it was 2.3 and 1.8. But later ones
revealed the final figures.

As for creative rights and control - you're right there's
a difference. But a slight one. They can do what they want, but what that is spin-offs. So for instance,
Joss leaves (and I know from what NB, JM, and SMG have said they'd probably go with him) MArti could do Dawn the Vampire
Slayer - this would be spin-off territory. Or they could
do a show featuring Spike, as they did with Angel. Or another Buffy movie with whole new actors playing the parts.
We probably wouldn't watch it and they'd make no money...but
hey, that's a risk they take.

Must be careful with these risks - b/c have to sell to advertisers and prove fans will continue to watch. Carter and X-files ran into this problem, when they lost Duchvony and tried to do spin-offs, none lasted more than a year.

The problem with cult genres is the people who own the rights to them - like Fox, those network exec's don't understand the audience who reads, obsessively watchs, and loves them. They don't respect the genre. As a result they don't always handle the propertries right. Examples: star trek got cancelled b/c of low ratings. Yet, later it has been found to have more marketability than any of the highly rated shows at the time. This genre is a gold mine, if you understand it and respect it. If you don't? It can be a money hole.

Not sure if you're right on the creative rights. I think Joss may have bought them back, but I could be wrong on that.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Actually...not, but its a different kind of arguement -- Dochawk, 09:23:41 06/23/02 Sun

Shadow,

The WB conducted their negotiations with Fox like idiots. They came back with an offer that was 8% lower, which is not the same as a full offer. In real terms it meant about 6 million dollars. Even to corporations like Fox and AOL not chump change. And the offer came at the 11th hour, 59th minute. if they had made the same offer during their exclusive negotiating period they would have had two more years of Buffy and we would have had crossovers.
[> [> [> [> Syndie Rights, Just for the record -- Dochawk, 13:56:29 06/21/02 Fri

Syndication rights for Buffy were bought for the 1st 5 seasons btw) in Spring 1999 by Fox for $600,000 per epi ( a bargain considering the FX ratings for them). So they were sold during season 3. Thats from a NYT article.
[> [> [> [> I think Fox owns it outright. -- cjc36, 06:49:23 06/22/02 Sat

I think when the Kuzui's and Sanddollar and Fox, etc decided to do Buffy on TV, they contractually had to give Joss a pass at doing it. If he'd said no, they would have still done the show (shudder at that thought for a moment!) Since he was big-time movie scribe, they figured he'd pass. But he didn't.

The copyright is under Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation. No ME, nothing else. If Joss left, Fox could do Buffy 'til the bovines go domestic.
[> It should end big -- darrenK, 13:45:23 06/20/02 Thu

They can't do Buffy the Vampire Slayer without Buffy.

They should end big at Season 7 like SMG has suggested and Joss has mentioned.

Even though I hate the thought of the show ending, I'd rather have it end at a designated point that the writers could spend the season building towards. Then they cap the series with the same care that they've always written it with.

For them to get rid of Buffy in some random or, worse, insignificant way would dilute the integrity that's always been the show's power.

The only thing that would make sense is for them to change the show to a general show about Slayers. Or in a twist on the old-actor-plays-young-character cliche they could have a show featuring Dawn, set 4 or 5 years after Season 7, when Dawn's at college. That way, SMG could make guest appearances and have it be perfectly normal. Other scoobies could be recurring characters and Spike or Willow could be the show's other principal character, taking care of Dawn while she's at college.

Or they could just pay enough for SMG to do season 8, but, as long as they leave it up in the air, it doesn't benefit the story or the fans.
[> Who cares if SMG is still in as long as Joss is -- Ete, 14:26:10 06/20/02 Thu

For me that's the only thing the show would never survive in quality. If it's only MN in command, i don't think i'd be really interrested anymore.

Oh, and wouldn't be great if they had Faith to replace Buffy ? I would love a Dawn spin off too (but they would have to find a good Key concept to make it work, not very easy, I don't want a Dawn's a slayer plot!)
[> [> Re: Who cares if SMG is still in as long as Joss is -- maddog, 14:32:20 06/20/02 Thu

Well sure, a parallel type show might work...but you can't have "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" with out it's namesake. Doesn't quite make sense. :) All are good ideas, I'm just saying you'd have to change the name.
[> [> [> Re: Who cares if SMG is still in as long as Joss is -- Ete, 14:37:18 06/20/02 Thu

But Buffy the vampire slayer isn't fighting vamps since a while now, they could drop the Buffy part too :)

yeah yeah, I'm afraid you're right. Why couldn't Whedon forsee that and name the show something else ? grrr Argh !
[> [> [> [> Re: Who cares if SMG is still in as long as Joss is -- maddog, 16:39:20 06/20/02 Thu

What I don't get is why people need to push for a season 8. You know if they try to push too far that an eventual final season will be crap. I mean, do we need another Saved by the Bell where they had like 4 different sub shows after the original cast left? Why not go out on top? Remember folks, all good things must come to an end.
[> [> [> [> [> Bravo, clap, clap, clap -- Masq, 16:56:54 06/20/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> I second that emotion! ;-) -- OnM, 17:23:32 06/20/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Re: Who cares if SMG is still in as long as Joss is -- Robert, 11:18:08 06/21/02 Fri

>> "But Buffy the vampire slayer isn't fighting vamps since a while now, they could drop the Buffy part too"

Where have you been? As recently as "Entropy", Buffy dusted a couple of vampires while on patrol.

>> "Why couldn't Whedon forsee that and name the show something else ?"

The title has served the show for six (and soon to be seven) years. How long does a TV show have to last to make you happy? It was the campy title which guaranteed that I watch the episode "Welcome to the Hellmouth", six years ago. I missed the whole first season of "The X-Files", because I originally thought it was some kind of supernatural/reality show.

If Geller elects not to renew her contract after season seven, that is no disaster. The show has had a long and honorable run, and Whedon is well capable of giving us a suitable series closing episode. The disaster would have been if Geller had dropped out mid-season due to illness or death.
[> The one thing I truly dread in this type of situation... -- cjl, 14:44:27 06/20/02 Thu

...is what happened to the X-Files in Seasons 8 and 9. Duchovny whined, bitched and moaned about wanting to move on and do films and get away from full-time Mulder. Chris Carter and Fox begged and pleaded and threw money, and Duchovny said "Oh, all right--I'll come back for 11 episodes."

At that point, Carter had to rewrite his series, and somehow find a credible reason for Mulder to disappear for half of Season 8 and then for all of Season 9. It distorted the characters beyond all recognition, and when Duchovny finally came back to close out the series, almost nobody cared.

Over on the BC&S board, I entertained a nightmare scenario of Buffy disappearing into another dimension at the end of Season 7. The Scoobs spend 21 episodes of "Buffy" Season 8 trying to fish her out. SMG shows up in ep 22, picks up her paycheck, kisses her old buddies on the set, then heads back out to film-land...

If SMG leaves after Season 7, I hope Fox lets it go at that. Don't try to bring her back for 2, 3, 5, 7 episodes and force Joss and Marti to write a sham season of "Buffy" around her. Pick up the spinoff right after the Season 7 finale and let things develop naturally....
[> [> Re: The one thing I truly dread in this type of situation... -- aliera, 14:59:44 06/20/02 Thu

Somehow, I just can't see Joss doing this...shall we share fears? Joss leaves instead, or with Sara...after Spoke sacrifices his life...sorry, now we're into nightmare territory...bad, bad aliera....
[> [> [> Re: The one thing I truly dread in this type of situation... -- shadowkat, 12:09:20 06/21/02 Fri

Agree FAR More worried about losing JM's Spike than Sarah's Buffy. YEs, I admit it, I'd stop watching if JM left wayyyy before i'd stop if SMG did. I also think if she leaves on the basis
of Scooby Doo popularity - then she is about to find herself in the same young superstar graveyard as Michael Keaton after Batman, Troy Donahu, Sandra Dee, and numerous
others. If I were SMG and thank god I'm not, I'd play it safe and wait and see what happens in Season 7 which btw is exactly what she's doing. Smart girl! She wants to end the show well, not flicker out like X-Files, Ally McBeal, and
countless others. She's proud the show is still strong and challenging. People like to feel proud of their work, feel challenged when they stop feeling that way they want to leave, (can identify that's me at this very moment). X-Files started flickering out wayyy before Duchovney wanted to leave. That's why he wanted to leave. It wasn't challenging any more. His character wasn't growing. It got boring.

Oh to reassure you: SMG recently said she didn't think it would make sense to do a movie. Then someone asked Whedon, echoing her sentiments, "Would you do it without her?"
Whedon: "Nope. Never. It wouldn't work."

Enuff said!Stop worrying. Let's see Season 7 first.
[> A S8 would be wonderful, if they have JW and SMG. -- Ixchel, 17:22:01 06/20/02 Thu

And all the others, I really don't want to lose anyone else (_Tara_). I'm sure JW still has plenty of ideas for BtVS and SMG _is_ Buffy, so if everyone was willing it would be great. But, if not, I would prefer BtVS end spectacularly in S7, hopefully with an origin of the Slayer arc (I'd be disappointed if this wasn't part of it). Also, again just my preference, Buffy _not_ die at the end, but maybe a (mostly) positive ending (not saccharine, of course). The occasional cameo in the remaining seasons of AtS would be nice too.

Ixchel
[> [> That will be interesting to see... -- Rob, 17:24:00 06/20/02 Thu

...how Joss will end "Buffy" on a positive note, while still upholding his "no happy endings" policy. Unless (hopefully) he makes an exception and has everybody end the show happy.

Rob
[> [> [> Well, doesn't he like to subvert the expected? -- Ixchel, 17:37:25 06/20/02 Thu

Maybe he could do that for the ending to a sublime show (my irrational hope)? It doesn't have to be _happy_, just somewhat positive. At least not abject misery? :)

Ixchel
[> [> [> Happy Buffy ? Season 7 spoilers -- Dochawk, 20:54:35 06/20/02 Thu

Well Joss seems to disagree with you:

"Overall, Joss and Marti said that while pain and horror will be always part of the series, next season will be much happier"

He also said that this will be the "biggest" finale ever and the season will end on a much more positive note (whatevber that means in Jossspeak)..

So I think he is planning for the end this season and Buffy will end somewhat positively. And then Marti gets to try to ruin it, Season 8.
[> [> [> [> Re: Happy Buffy ? Season 7 spoilers -- wiscoboy, 06:59:55 06/21/02 Fri

Giles once said the prophecies concerning the role of the slayer during the end-times is unclear. I still think that they could end this(in whichever season) by showing Buffy reaching an age(which no other slayer has achieved) by which she is given release from her role and responsibilities as the slayer, allowing her to resume a "normal" life.
[> [> [> [> [> Buffy doesn't really want to be normal. Spoilers Season 4 -- LeeAnn, 07:29:21 06/21/02 Fri

Buffy didn't like being normal. Remember Helpless when Giles drugged her so she lost her superpowers. Some CoW test. She hated it.

Buffy: When I hit him, it felt like my arm was broken, it hurt so much. I can't be just a person. I can't be helpless like that. Giles, please, we have to figure out what's happening to me.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy doesn't really want to be normal. Spoilers Season 4 -- Robert, 11:03:01 06/21/02 Fri

>> "Buffy didn't like being normal. Remember Helpless when Giles drugged her so she lost her superpowers. "

LeeAnn, this is a very good point and I interpreted it in a slightly different way. I saw Buffy as frightened at the prospect of being helpless while still fighting vampires and demons in Sunnydale. I didn't see this as evidence that Buffy would rather be the slayer (with an uncertain future) over being returned to a life of normality (no powers and no villians). Regardless, your interpretation is at least as valid as mine.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy doesn't really want to be normal. Spoilers Season 4 -- wiscoboy, 11:23:00 06/21/02 Fri

I have to agree with Robert...she was speaking under terms that still included the ongoing battle. She had consistently maintained throughout high school that she wanted to live a normal life. This thread of thought has sort of gotten lost within the writing of last few seasons(especially since the emergence of Dawn), to the point of not being referred to whatsoever except in the concept of Buffy's deathwish(in absence of the possibility of a "normal life", she wants to permanently escape/exit it.).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Normal or Superhero. Which do you choose? -- LeeAnn, 12:58:16 06/21/02 Fri

She said she wanted to be normal but the one time she was faced with the reality of normal she freaked and not just when she had to fight vampires. When some guy was hasseling Cordelia, she tried to stop it, and instead got knocked down and hurt. She got treated like a weak, helpless woman who could be pushed around. She didn't like it.

They hear a boy raising his voice and look in his direction. He's talking to Cordelia.
Boy: (upset) You don't do that to me! I waited for you at the Bronze all night!
Cordelia: And the big deal is?
Boy: You made me look like some kind of dork in front of my posse!
He grabs her arm. Cordelia is offended, and slaps his arm away.
Cordelia: First of all, 'posse'? Passe'! Second of all, anyone with a teaspoon of brains knows not to take my flirting seriously. Especially with my extenuating circumstances.
Boy: (confused) What circumstances?
Cordelia: Rebound! Look it up!
She tries to leave, but he grabs her by both shoulders and pushes her against a tree.
Boy: Hey! I'm not through here.
Buffy immediately moves in and grabs the boy's arm.
Buffy: Oh, I beg to differ.
She tries to yank at it, but finds she has absolutely no strength. He scoffs at her and nudges her away rather hard. Buffy falls backward, stumbling onto a bench and rolls off onto the ground. Cordelia is incensed, and shoves him away from her.
Cordelia: What is wrong with you?
Boy: Ow.
She starts pounding him in the chest with girlie punches. He quickly backs away, but Cordelia keeps up with him and won't let up.
Boy: God, the chick started it!
Willow gets down to her knees to help Buffy up.
Willow: (very concerned) Are you okay?
Buffy slowly sits up, very confused.
Cut to the hall. Giles is heading toward the library with a stack of magazines. Buffy catches up with him.
Buffy: Okay, I just got swatted down by some no-neck and rescued by Cordelia. What the hell is happening?

Later, talking to Angel she wonders what she is if she isn't the Slayer.
Buffy: Before I was the Slayer, I was... (leans on the table) Well, I, I don't wanna say shallow, but... Let's say a certain person, who will remain nameless, we'll just call her Spordelia, looked like a classical philosopher next to me. Angel, if I'm not the Slayer, what do I do? What do I have to offer? Why would you like me?

Angel tells her he loved her before she was the Slayer. Buffy believes him. I don't know if I do because she might not have been a Slayer but he knew she was about to become one.

When she finds out Giles has poisoned her she rants at him:
Buffy: (sobbing angrily) You bastard. All this time, you saw what it was doing to me. All this time, and you didn't say a word!

Maybe you're right and Buffy does want to be normal but I think she wants to be normal because she has a fantasy about what normal is. Give her a day of normal and she's desperate to go back to having superpowers. Who wouldn't?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Normal or Superhero. Which do you choose? -- Robert, 15:30:09 06/21/02 Fri

>> "Give her a day of normal and she's desperate to go back to having superpowers."

There was very little that was normal about that day.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Normal or Superhero. Which do you choose? -- wiscoboy, 06:47:38 06/22/02 Sat

One constant in this series is that when Buffy "feels" vulnerable, she emotionally and mentally freezes up. In the first scenario, this causes her to distance herself from everyone, even her closest friends. In the second, she always reacts the same by forgetting that she has and how to use her fighting skills. She seems to equate physical strength with the ability to overcome physical obstacles. If and when she comes to understand that skill and mental toughness are just as important to her ability to fight back, then I believe there would be no question that she would want back a "normal life"
[> [> [> [> [> [> The down side of being a superhero -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 21:02:31 06/22/02 Sat

"You can't win, you can't break even, and you can't quit the game."

If Buffy stays as a Slayer, she is doomed to die young. Every one's luck runs out eventually.

Aging is hell, until you consider the only alternative (and it's NOT staying young forever.)

Of course, in the Buffyverse, she could live forever -- but only come out at night . . .
[> PLEASE NO! -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:15:58 06/20/02 Thu

I've been looking forward to an awesome Season 7 with tons of character deaths, a massive, apocalyptic ending, and a solid ending. I don't want it to drag on for another season when they can go out with a big finish.

However, I would love to see the Buffyverse live on in a spinoff. I'm thinking one starring Spike and Dawn. Dawn, being the Key, must not fall into evil hands. Spike becomes her Guardian, sworn to protect her until the end of the world.

I'm hoping next season will be Buffy's last, but that her universe lives on in many other shows.
[> Faith The Vampire Slayer? -- PatHawk, 19:37:59 06/20/02 Thu

That's something I would watch. I've always found Faith's deeply disturbed and conflicted character far more interesting than Buffy, who has become chronically jaded lately, and prone to neurotic fits of navel gazing.

Don't get me wrong, I like Buffy, but I love Faith who has much more depth.

And Eliza is by far the superior actress to SMG(who is exelent in her own right).

So, what do you think? Buffy dies/whatever and Faith then has no choice but to assume the full responsabilities of the Slayer, while travelling the rocky, uphill road to redemtion and dealing with the SG who for good reason hate her...
hmm.. then again we already have Angel..

Ah well.
[> [> Re: Faith The Vampire Slayer? -- Dochawk, 20:58:42 06/20/02 Thu

Hmmmm, interesting handle.

As for your saying ED is a better actress than SMG. You are comparing apples and oranges, ED has had a much easier load (being a lead is much tougher than a supporting actress) and SMG is pretty much a phenomenal actress. its also much much easier to play the bad girl than the good girl. (they were girls in season 3). The "navel gazing" which seems to bother you was exactly what she was supposed to be getting across, that she had lost her affect and nothing made her care. It was in fact such a good acting job that people totally missed that she was acting.
[> [> [> I digress. -- PatHawk, 21:26:59 06/20/02 Thu

Your right, I withdraw my comment about whose the better actor.
I realize that the "navel gazing" is part of the character, what bothers me is that 'Buffy' the character herself is being writen that way.
I guess that'll change next season with the return of 'fun, quippy Buffy'.
[> [> Re: Faith The Vampire Slayer? -- Robert, 10:55:23 06/21/02 Fri

>> "And Eliza is by far the superior actress to SMG(who is exelent in her own right)."

Can you please expand upon this? I haven't seen enough of Eliza Dushku's work to form an opinion either way. In the last six years, Sarah Geller has shown us an incredible array of well performed emotions. What have you seen of Dushku that allows you to conclude that she is "far the superior actress"? I would like to see it also.
[> [> [> Re: Faith The Vampire Slayer? -- wiscoboy, 11:40:49 06/21/02 Fri

IMO Pathawk is sadly mistaken on the quality of ED's acting vs. SMG's. Sure she looks good ripping clothes off guys, but if you really look at her performances, she can appear a little lost and unconvincing(especially in the earlier appearances..she did get better as time went on).
[> [> [> [> Re: Faith The Vampire Slayer? -- Robert, 11:54:40 06/21/02 Fri

>> "IMO Pathawk is sadly mistaken on the quality of ED's acting vs. SMG's."

I don't think we've seen enough of Dushku's acting to know either way. I presume that Pathawk has seen additional work by Dushku to form such a strong opinion. If Dushku is that good, then I also would like to see it.

Regarding Dushku's work in BtVS, I believe that she did the job she was hire to do, and she did it well. However, Faith as a tertiary character exhibited a range of emotions that was very limited compared to that of Buffy. Thus, Dushku really didn't have the opportunity to demonstrate the full range of her talents.
[> [> [> Re: Faith The Vampire Slayer? -- LeeAnn, 13:04:53 06/21/02 Fri

>> "And Eliza is by far the superior actress to SMG(who is exelent in her own right)."

Can you please expand upon this? I haven't seen enough of Eliza Dushku's work to form an opinion either way.

ED may not be the better actress but, from the heterosexual girl POV, I think she's prettier and sexier than Gellar and...she has breasts.
[> [> [> [> Re: Faith The Vampire Slayer? -- O'Cailleagh, 02:13:53 06/22/02 Sat

>>"ED may not be the better actress but, from the heterosexual girl POV, I think she's prettier and sexier than Gellar and...she has breasts."

Which would be great if we were discussing entrants in a beauty pageant....but we're not. What exactly do T+A have to do with either a) acting, or b) vampire-slaying?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Faith The Vampire Slayer? -- VR, 11:12:06 06/23/02 Sun

They serve as a distraction if one sucks at either.
Buffy Conference -- Masquerade, 14:14:35 06/20/02 Thu

I think this has been posted before, even twice before, but I got an e-mail so here it is again:

Blood, Text and Fears: Reading Around Buffy the Vampire Slayer
19-20 October 2002
University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK

For details please visit:
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~r036/buffy_conference.htm
Hey beautiful people - can you do me a favour...? -- NightRepair, 02:44:15 06/20/02 Thu

This is my problem. As many of you (well, everyone in chat) may know, I work in a primary school. Sometimes I have no trouble accessing the board, but for about the last month, there have been days on end when I have been denied access because the school's filter system finds the site 'inappropriate'.

My request is that people be extra careful as to what they out into the subject lines. I'm only assuming that this is the reason why I can't access the board. (If anyone has any other theories I would love to hear them). I am currently on a friend's computer because I am still denied access at school (and don't have internet access at home).

I just feel out of the loop when I can't check the board on a regular basis! Thank goodness for chat (which I have no problems accessing), you guys give me my Buffy fix!
See you in the future... (it's already tomorrow in Australia!)
[> No problem NR, except.... -- O'Cailleagh, 06:25:47 06/20/02 Thu

I don't think that there has been anything objectionable in the subject lines (unless you count mentions of Spike every two words!). The only one I've noticed of late is in your betrothed's post down below, where he mentions sex. Hmmm....not sure what else would be causing it though....
[> [> I thought it would be appropriate. Masq doesn't seem to like porn. -- VR, 06:58:25 06/20/02 Thu

But there's barely anything in it, though.
[> [> [> Re: I thought it would be appropriate. Masq doesn't seem to like porn. -- O'Cailleagh, 07:08:07 06/20/02 Thu

I agree, it was a necessary use of 'sex' in the subject line...I was just using it as the only example of possible 'unsuitable' content....
[> [> [> [> umm -- Rahael, 07:15:27 06/20/02 Thu

If any word in the subject line is going to stop this site being accessed I'd have thought it would be "porn"
[> [> [> [> [> Good point Rah!!! -- O'Cailleagh, 07:21:22 06/20/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Re:Perhaps it's the word "vampire" -- Brian, 07:27:33 06/20/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Yesterday.. there was the word.. -- neaux, 07:44:30 06/20/02 Thu

Sexual Innuendo.. could that have caused a block?
[> [> [> [> [> The word "sex" can mean many things -- VampRiley, 10:02:09 06/20/02 Thu

I have 8, count 'em -- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, different definitions of the word sex in my dictionary and it is a couple years old.

O'C? Guess what?

I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!!

There are only three books stores where I live and I had no luck until I went to Borders. And there is was. Sitting there in all its lone book lonesome in between two other graphic novels. It was the only one in the store and I GOT IT!!!!

Sadly, there is only one comic book store anywhere near my house. It's in a mall nearby, but there was none on the shelf. And the clerk said they were all out. Humphh.

But, I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!! I got Tales!!!

I'm off to read now before class. Oh, O'C? that 8 or 9 was EST.

The magnificent one
[> [> [> [> [> [> Woohoo! I knew you could do it! -- O'Cailleagh, 11:41:39 06/20/02 Thu

[> [> Wait a minute! -- dream of the consortium, 07:42:00 06/20/02 Thu

Another betrothed? How did I miss that? How many ATPoBtVS romantic pairings does that make, anyway? Shoudl we start a personals page?

Oh, and congratulations!
[> [> [> Re: Exactly... -- dubdub, 09:07:51 06/20/02 Thu

Who's betrothed to who now? Inquiring minds want to know.

;o)
[> I doubt it's the posts. -- Solitude1056, 08:38:14 06/20/02 Thu

If you look at the advertising headers on some of the pages, they're definitely for porn. Not much we can do about Voy's sponsors, unfortunately, although I must admit there's been a few times that I find the whole advertising-for-porn-while-I'm-writing-about-buffy thing just a bit crass. Uh, well, I find all banners rather crass, but those especially so. Anyway, it could be that if that banner is the one pulled up in the random drop, then your nannyware is alerting on the keywords in the banner and hence the random difficulty.
[> [> I have never gotten a banner ad here that could be vaguely associated with pornography . . . -- d'Herblay, 14:28:52 06/20/02 Thu

. . . and I'm starting to wonder why. Has Voy's spyware progressed to the point that they are able to target the ads to the poster? Do they have Sol demographically pegged as a consumer of pornography, but they know that I would be more interested in "LendingTree.com" and "Red Cross Blood Donations" and "Fund Free Mammograms! www.TheBreastCancerSite.com: Click Here!"

Or is it simple naivté on my part? A failure of imagination on my part? That "Automotive Accesories" ad then does intrigue; don't get me started on the "Club Mom Driving Club." And the everpresent "California DMV complaints" sounds like it could be fertile grounds for a porn movie. Unfortunately, due to another project of mine, the dialogue of the porno in my head is all in haikus:

INT. CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLES - DAY

The buxom DMV complaints officer Savannah greets customer Bryce who seems to have ignored the clearly posted "No Shirt, No Service" sign.

SAVANNAH
What is your complaint?
Satisfaction is our goal.
Put it in the slot.

BRYCE
The lines are so long,
and the forms are very hard,
and so is this, babe.

CUE BASS LINE

Ummm . . . where was I? Oh, yes. I have seen a lot of ads here, but I have never seen one that I would associate with pornography in any way. Am I alone in this? And, if so, why do I have to be Gallant to all you Goofuses?
[> [> [> Snerk! at your script. And: there was an ad... -- Masq, 15:02:00 06/20/02 Thu

for a while at the top of the board that showed buxom babes in bikinis and something about them dancing around a pole and I forget what it was an ad for--exotic dancers, an exotic dancers voy discussion board, who knows. It disappeared.

I have nothing against exotic dancers or buxom babes over even porn (VR), but I hate being forced to stare at ads for it while I'm on the board. These are things I'd rather see at the strip club or in private.
[> [> [> [> I missed that one. I too would rather see them in private. -- d'Herblay, 15:05:48 06/20/02 Thu

Ummmmm . . . ok, this is starting to sound like there's a new plan for the Bay Area Get-Together . . .
[> [> [> [> [> Re: I missed that one. I too would rather see them in private. -- Masq, 15:20:07 06/20/02 Thu

Huh?

Are you suggesting we all meet at a strip club?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Of COURSE not! Rah would have my head! -- d'Herblay, 15:27:31 06/20/02 Thu

Ok . . . there's a double entendré in there, and this isn't doing anything to help Night Repair anyway!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Of COURSE not! Rah would have my head! -- O'Cailleagh, 15:58:06 06/20/02 Thu

I'm glad you noticed it...'cause I didn't want to point it out!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> O.K., then I'm confused -- Masq, 16:15:20 06/20/02 Thu

That reference to new plans for the August meet seemed to come out of nowhere. What did you mean?
[> [> [> [> That's good to know. -- VR, 17:34:57 06/20/02 Thu

[> Every filter is different, but if your school filters "occult content" that could be a problem. -- Dyna, 09:47:38 06/20/02 Thu

[> [> Re: Every filter is different, but if your school filters "occult content" that could be a problem. -- O'Cailleagh, 11:47:22 06/20/02 Thu

Very true...my last college had an occult filter on their computers which included aromatherapy in its occult definition (which is actually correct but thats besides the point!). Problem was, I was at the college studying aromatherapy!!!
[> [> [> Thanks guys it's just that... -- NightRepair, 15:45:13 06/20/02 Thu

It's just that sometimes I can access it and then other times I can't. It doesn't seem to be a problem with something that is permanently on the page (that's why I thought it was possibly the subject lines). Nevermind,. thanks for your input.
Highlights of the Saturn Awards on the Space Channel -- Rufus, 00:54:17 06/21/02 Fri

On Space, a Canadian channel devoted to Science Fiction and Fantasy, there was an hour devoted to the Saturn Awards. From BTVS there was Joss Whedon and Michelle Trachtenberg. The show wasn't linear and went back and forth from the ceremony to outside to clips of the shows being featured.

I'll leave out the rest and focus on the section that Joss and Michelle were in. Don't ask me what they looked like.....they looked clean and presentable.....Michelle that bit more so (could be the eyeliner). In the first bit Joss was being honest, if less than serious sounding.

Joss was outside signing autographs and there was a clip of him answering a question about season six...

Question: How would you describe the season of Buffy this year? What do you think the major themes were?

Joss: Ahhhhh......get really depressed. I think that's what we were going for with Buffy uhh and I think we hit the mark. I think we made people want to kill themselves and avoid our TV show, and I'm proud of that.

Question: And is that a trend that's going to continue next season?

Joss: No. Every season is different and in this season we really wanted to go to the dark place and really talk about power, and talk about sexuality, and really explore some very dark themes. And a lot of people sort of didn't really want to go there with us....at least not for twenty-two episodes.
Next year is going to be different, next year actually is going to be a kind of a turn around. We want to explore the joy of girl power, as it were. So, it's umm a lot more, like, early Buffy...than the more twisted later Buffy.

(There was a short chat with Michelle)

Question: What did you think of the season this year? Was it a little dark perhaps?

Michelle: Nothing is ever too dark, that's what makes it so exciting. Umm it was very interesting because each character kind of got the chance to revel in the dark arts, and..umm..it was just, it was a good season on the whole. But, next year will be better...less dark.

The show then cut to Malcom Jamal Warner announcing the Saturn Award for Best Network TV Show.....Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and Joss went up to accept the award..

Joss: Thank you..very much.....I'm so used to just saying that it's an honour to be nominated.
I've been to a lot of award shows, and this is cooler than any of them...for a few reasons. Emmys, Oscars...umm......no Storm Troopers.....uhhh.....and I really looked. Also, I didn't win, so that wasn't as cool. And...uhhh..most importantly because their award comes from a different group of people than those people. This comes truly.....from a bunch of Nerds, and when I say that I mean....I mean smart people, I mean people who understand what Science Fiction and Fantasy mean. But, whenever I go to any other awards show, it's always "in spite" of what I do. It's always....they always talk about transcending the genre, and I don't believe in transcending the genre....I believe in the Genre.
I believe, I honestly do think there is no better place to talk about anything..myth..human interactions...social interactions..history, any of that and all of that all at once, than in Fantasy and Science Fiction.

(They went to a clip of Giles and Buffy in the magic shop leading to the Walk through the fire number in OMWF)

Joss: This year was about sort of entering the adult world and ahh...really making a poor job of it, and you know bad and rather turgid relationships were part of that. Also, you know there was....because we've done so much metaphorically, there came a point at which...well...let's do something literally just to see what's different. I mean, especially with Willows relationship...eventually if we didn't show some physicality, we'd have been just too Coy.

(Back to a OMWF clip of Willow and Tara in the park before the Under your Spell number) they again went back to a short clip of Michelle speaking.

Michelle: I feel that every episode we do we're trying to work to a greater model of something...because I think the moment you stop striving to do your best, that's when you fail. And, I think the reason why Buffy has been so successful is because no one's ever stopped working hard.

(Back to a OMWF clip of Buffy and Spike in his crypt pre- Rest in Peace number) then to a last comment from Joss at the awards.

Joss: When I was ten years old, I got my very first autograph at a convention, and it was from a man who has probably influenced my work more than any other single person...and that was Stan Lee. And it is an honour to be here in his presence tonight....Thank you very much.
Is Xander a "Rescuer"? By Helping the Scoobies, Avoiding his Own Issues...? -- K-Dizzy, 12:33:16 06/21/02 Fri

Either by deliberate action or unconscious denial, Xander has developed an uncanny ability and strong tendency to avoid working on his own personal issues by helping, "rescuing," and "being there" for his surrogate family, particularly Buffy and Willow. This doesn't seem wrong to him or anyone because, well, he's being a hero! But isn't this actually psychologically unhealthy for him? Such efforts enable him to (indefinitely) avoid confronting his own demons. This happens in two main areas:


Issues with Relationships:
Rather than address the bitter legacy of his own "monstrous" upbringing, his basic denial of Anyanka's evil-doing past, and his (relative) hypocrisy in being romantically involved with her, "white knight" Xander apparently invests vast amounts of mental energy obsessing about Fair Maiden Buffy's love and sex life…. Case in point: instead of beginning the overwhelming task of figuring out why he couldn't explain his fears to Anya, and how he might fix this, Xander elects to focus on the more "obvious" problem of Buffy being (emotionally and physically) with Spike, the soulless monster she surreptitiously "let in" to Fortress Buffy. Some argue this is because Xander still wants her, but there's another logical explanation: he KNOWS why Anya did what she did. So that leaves two real mysteries to probe: his own behavior and Buffy's. And WHY begin the painful process of self-examination when it's just SO much easier to dig into your hero's/friend's issues...??

Indeed, going back, it's not coincidence that it's only when Buffy had been 'safe' up in her ivory tower with Prince Charming Riley that Xander was able to bond with, connect to and have his wonderful "You make me feel like a man" epiphany regarding Anya…. he finally has the free operating space/speed on his internal PC's psychological hard drive to do so! It is precisely because he is NOT expending his resources running around, engaging in pissing contests, marking the perimeter trees of his Buffy territory to keep out "strong, mysterious, well-muscled" demon males of the vampire persuasion, that Xander has the time, energy and resulting insight to realize and express his own heart's desires to the woman he loves.


Issues with Insecurity/Power:
Rather than examine his inclination and apparent need to constantly correct, manage and otherwise "control" the outspoken Anya (who will never be a victim like his mother?) and/or confront the possibility of his becoming like his abusive father, Xander chooses to focus on the practice- not the causes- of Willow's abuse of magic/power. In fact, much like he doesn't acknowledge his own little "control" or boundary issues, he lets Willow off the hook any number of times for abusing magic and Tara (e.g. Tabula Rasa); maybe because she doesn't seem to be 'enjoying' her power (he missed the Bronze scene), because she seems very sorry, and because he doesn't really register the depth/roots of her problem (Older and Far Away). He knows better now. And with the loss of Tara, Xander (the Heart) is going to have to work a LOT of overtime to help a shattered Willow rebuild her confidence, life and oh-so-wounded Spirit after the events of last season.

All of which makes Xander a supportive, loyal and generous friend. But for his own happiness, it seems that Xander really needs to spend some quality time working on his OWN issues. In his whole life, Anya is the only person who has ever considered and put HIS needs above all others, and now he's driven her away. Buffy has Dawn and her slaying as her main focus; Willow has her intense grief and immense guilt to occupy her. But when these two suck Xander's energy and strength into their causes; when Xander spends all of his time either helping Buffy protect the world or helping Willow recover, who is going to fight for him like Anya did? After the wedding fiasco and vicious, après "solace" argument, he can no longer deny his personal demons- they've moved front-and-center. They're pretty obvious now. But who's going to encourage him to tackle them, when there's so much other 'noble' work to do...? When and how will Xander ever realize that charity begins at home??
[> Love this and completely agree -- Dead Soul, 14:14:15 06/21/02 Fri

R vs J, pt 5 -- VampRiley, 13:08:55 06/21/02 Fri

I didn't feel like doing my final three reports for class. So, I wrote this up instead.

I've decided to expand on this beyond the original paramiters. I got bored with just writing action. So, I decided mix and match a few things.

Previously on Robert vs. Joey...

The grip of Joey's left hand loosened on his bat, but he still held it. Robert stood up and grabbed Joey by the back of his hair. He raised his left knee and smashed Joey's face into it. His nose broken, Joey extended the claws of his right hand and slashed deeply into Robert's stomach. He grabbed his bat with both hands and shoved Robert backward. The bat was pressing into where Joey slashed him. He tried to push back, but it was too painful. They crashed through the window. They fell through the air. Robert looked at him and saw a smile. Robert turned them over and the smile left Joey and appeared on Robert. They landed on the road with a loud crack. Robert looked at Joey and saw he was passed out. Robert smiled, but he got very tired. He rolled off of Joey to his left and passed out.

Now, on R vs J...

Joey woke up to pain. His brow furrowed, he felt around with his hands. He felt something warm and hard. It felt like a street, but there were cracks around his body. There were some pebbles pressed into his hands. As he opened his eyes, he found the sun had gone down. He painfully rolled over to his right. He got up to his hands and knees. The street was warm as was the air. He took a deep breathe and moved his shoulders around. He felt really warm and took off his jacket. He stood up and turned around. He looked at the broken window he and Robert came out of. Then, he looked around himself on the street.


******************************************************


Robert walked down a street down the middle of it. He was in a suburban area and came upon a house on his right. The ground slopped down behind it while the house stayed level. He stopped in front of it. It was a two story house with the garage on the left. The front door was in the center and there were two windows on the right side. As he looked at the house, the sword was absorbed into his hand with a metallic ringing. He walked across the grass and stopped at the front door. He looked at the door knob and grabbed it. He slowly turned it and the door opened. He stepped inside and saw a window in front of him inside another room at
the end of the hallway he was in. Inside it, he could see a breakfast table coming from the left. There was the back of a chair facing him, a chair on the other side of it and another chair was tucked under the other visible edge. Behind that chair was part of a counter. Through the window, there was a wooden deck and beyond that was the backyard that was basement level and very far away. He could make out the basic shape of trees in the distance. Between him and that room was a closet on the right. In the hallway and the room with the table, there was tile on the floor. Between him and the closet was an open doorway that lead to a large room with two couches. On the left side of the room was another open area that lead to a dinner room table with chairs perpandicular to the front of the house. Behind the table was a large china cabinet. Both the front room and the dinning room had dark green carpeting on the floor.

To Robert's left was a carpeted staircase that lead upstairs. There were three stairs then a flat area. The stairs continued as they moved upwards perpandicular to the first three. He went up the stairs. The carpeting continued onto the second level. He passed a bathroom with the door open after he turned left at the top of the stairs. He then passed a bedroom that was small on his right. There was another bedroom at the end of the hall in front of him, but there was a third bedroom right before that one on the left. He went into that one. The door was opened to the left. There was a dresser on his right with a mirror that ran the whole length of it. On the other side of the dresser was a closet. Coming out of the opposite was a bed with a light blue comforter on top. The bed was made up. There was a nightstand on either side with a lamp on each. There was a smaller dresser between him and the back wall that was up against the left wall. Directly in front of him was a small window. Between that window and the dresser was a door that lead into another bathroom. Between him and the smaller dresser was a small closet. On the wall on the opposite side of the room was a larger window. The walls were painted white and there was dark green carpeting.

On the left nightstand, there was a picture in a light brown wooden frame. He walked over to it. He picked it up and turned left as he sat on the bed. He put his left foot uder his right knee. He leaned back against the head board. In the picture were two people -- himself and another woman with long red hair that was just below shoulder length. She had a small mole on her top lip on her left side. They were looking happy with smiles. He sat behind her, his arms around her waist. She was turned around to him and looked at him with a kittenish, lopsided grin. He looked back at her with the right side of his mouth turned up. The picture was taken at night with a full moon high in the sky in the background. The sky was full of stars. They looked so completely in love. Behind and below them was the rooftops of suburbian houses. They all looked done in a spanish style. It wasn't one of those where they take the picture and put a background behind you. They were actually there. He looked at it with sad eyes as he lightly ran the fingers on his right hand over it, while he held it with his left.

Tears started welling up in his eyes. He looked up and saw his reflection in the mirror in front of him. He got angry and vamped out. He took the picture in his right hand and threw it again the wall on his right like a frisbee. Right before it hit the wall, it stopped and hovered in the air. It floated slowly back to him. It stopped in the air in front of him. He reached out with his left and grabbed it. He looked at it and his face shifted back to human. He got up and tossed the picture onto the center of the bed. He walked out the door and turned right.

He came down the stairs and turned left, heading toward the breakfast table. As he entered the room, he could see another large opening leading to another room with off-white carpeting. There were two steps that lead down into that room. Facing him was the back of a love seat with an end table on the left. On the right side of the room was a sliding door that lead to the wooden deck. On the left side of the the door was a three-seater couch. On the left side of it was another end table. In the back, left corner was a large TV. Opposite of the sliding door was an opening to another hallway. Before those two stpes was and open door that lead to a staircase leading downstairs. To his left was the right side of a fridge. The counter in the kitchen was shaped like a sideways "U". On the other side of the kitchen was a stove connected into the "U". Opposite the fridge was the sink. On the right of the stove was an open door way that lead to the dinning room. He went to the
fridge, pulling on the right door. He reached in with his left and pulled whole milk out. He reached above the fridge and grabbed a box of Cheerios with his right. He took one of those fruit bowels out of one of those cabinets behind him. He went over to the stove and grabbed an semi-transparent container with a vanilla colored top off the back of the stove. When he walked back to where he was, he poured the cereal and the milk into the bowel. He opened the top and poured some sugar on top with the small scoop that was inside. He put the stuff back and went to the dining room.

As he went into the room, there was a cabinet about the size of the dressers up stairs with a really oversided brandy snifter that was obviously not for drinking from.
It had the word "Datis" frosted on the front with a large, plastic handle sticking out of it. On the wall on the left was a small window. Out of the small corner on his right as he went into the front room was a small display case with a single doll in it. It was dressed in a kimono. It had jet black skin, white eyes with no irises, long white hair that stopped at the center of her lower back and long pointed ears. Her chin was as long as the breads on egyptian pharoahs. It ended in a forked edge. At her feet were burnt green colored flowers. They were tied together with a yellow ribbon around the stems. The flowers sat facing away from her. Her mouth was open and there was a row of sharp, connical teeth, like that of tarsiers, on her bottom and top jaw. Through the whole display were twoi mirrors that acted as backings for the case.

As he entered to front room, there was a large mirror on the left wall and a three-seater couch underneath it. Across from him were two windows with three small coffee tables underneath them They were cut with a waving pattern like that of the yin/yang symbol so they would fit together, but there was a little space between them. Each of them had two levels on them. Against the wall on his right as he faced the hallway was a love seat. Out of the corner on the left side of the opposite wall was another big screen TV with a VCR on top of it. There were tapes strewn about the floor around the TV and on top of the VCR. Some had labels on their side while others didn't. While holding his bowel from underneath with his left hand, he knelt down on his right knee and found one. He got up and put it in the VCR. He hit play and sat on the love seat. On the screen, there was this girl with bleached hair asleep in bed. Then, various images appeared on the screen. He reached for his spoon and realized he didn't get one. He went through the hallway to kitchen and opened one of the drawers. He found no spoons. He looked in the drainer on the right side of the sink and found one. He went through the dinning room and sat back on couch. On the screen, the blonde girl slowly moved through a library. She looked over the counter on the right and pulled back. She was tapped on her right shoulder. Spooked, she turned around and saw a man dressed in a tweed suit. He put a mouthful of food into his mouth and began to chew.


****************************************


Joey walked up to a sidewalk with his baseball bat in his left and his jacket in his right. In the distance, he saw a one level building. To his right, he saw the words "St. Catherine's Elementary school" on a stand in the middle of the field.


****************************************


Joey pushed open the front double doors and walked through them. There was an office in front of him and chairs and couches on his left and right. He walked further in and saw a hallway that went left and right. He moved left and saw a glass door in the far left corner facing left. To the right in the far corner were double wodden doors that had their kick stands down, holding them open. Through the doors, the hallway immediately turned left. As he continued, he passed classrooms with small chairs. The second grade classes on he left and the first grade ones on the right. He made his way down to the kindergarden classes. Right before those classes was another double door made of glass on the left and another hallway that went to the chorus room on the left side with the door in the far left corner and the door to the auditorium that was on the right, which wasn't as far as the chorus room. At the very end of the corridor was a double door made of glass that led to the outside where gym and recess were held. On the left past the intersection was the door for speech class and the door for the music room was opposite that room.

He finally made it to where the kindergarden classes were. He entered the first room on his right. There were several finger paintings and other drawings of crayons and markers all along the wall. There was a small girl, about ten, sitting at a round table in the center of the room. She had long red hair. She was wearing blue jeans, white sneakers, which were dirty, and a yellow button front shirt. There were several empty chairs around the table. He walked over to her and she looked up. He though she looked really cute. He could see a small mole on her top lip on her left side. She smiled at him and he returned her smile. She pulled the chair on her left out and offered it to him. Before he could sit, other kids came in. One of them had his shirt off. "Hey, Joey" said the kid. As he past him, he put on the white t-shirt in his right hand. But, before he put it on all the way, Joey could see the tatooe of a black raven on left upper back.

He went to sit in the pulled out chair, when the red head growled at him. "That's his."

"He's not using it now."

"I saved it for him. So, stay away from it!"

"Damn. Fine." he scoffed and sat at the chair on it's left.

Joey saw a girl in a dark red dress come up to him. She was holding a doll that was burnt. "You don't belong here. You left us a long time ago."

"She wants me here." he said turning to the red head.

"She always wants you with her. Always has. Always will, no matter how much pain and misery you put each other through. She wants to live the fairy tail." She moved past him and sat down two seats over from the tatooed boy.

"Hey, baby." he said looking at her with a sweet smile. "Why don't you come over here and sit next to me. I can show you a few things I can do with certain body
parts."

"Hey!" said a boy with medium brown hair. He sat in the chair bewteen them. "She's mine. So, stay away from her."

"Not for long, you idiot." The brown haired boy hit the dark haired boy with a right cross. The got up and started fighting.

"Huh hmm." Everyone turned to the door way. There was a girl about their age, maybe a little older, with shoulder length brown hair. "Having to see you two fight gives me a headache. So, stop it." The dark haired boy smiled at the other boy. The non-smiling boy let go of him and sat back in the chair. "Why are you here?" she said walking up to Joey. He tried to say something. "You're different." She smelled him and growled. "Stay away from us."

"Hey!" said the red head. "He's mine! If I want him here, he can be here."

"Mister Christoph is not gonna like him here. You know that."

"I don't care, you jerk face! I want him here."

"Ooohh, you're gonna be in trouble when he finds out. He's gonna have to discipline you. I like it when he disciplines me." She walked to the table and sat down in Joey's seat. She growled at her. "He won't be staying. So, he won't be needing it." She turned to Joey and he saw her face turn to fear. Joey turned around and saw a tall man standing in front of him. He was in a black suit with a white suit, shiney black shoes and a blood red tie. He had a crew cut and was vamped out. His cheeck area were extremely defined. his forhead was very bumpy and a nose that looked like a feline's. His ears were pointed. He had 6 short whiskers and a very slight fuzz on his skin. He glared at the boy with yellow eyes that glowed, like dim flashlights.

He grabbed Joey by the throat with his right with his claws extended. He picked him up and slammmed him up against the door of the closet right next to the door to the hallway.

The red head ran up to the adult. "Please, Mister Christoph! Please, don't hurt him! He's like us!" He reached in front of him and grabbed her by the front of her shirt with his left. While Joey was struggling in pain, he held the girl up. Joey tried to hit his arm with the bat, but it didn't faze him.

"He's nothing like us. Nothing!" He threw her backwards to his left. She hit the black board and fell to the floor. Mister Christoph's claws dug further into his neck. He leaned in closer. "You should have know this would have happened if you came back."

"Kill him!!! Kill 'im!!!" cheered the dark haired boy and brown haired girl next to him.

He tried to say "no", but it came out as a gurgle.

"Never show you face around here again." he said menacingly. He let him go and Joey dropped.

The red head looked up. "No." she said softly, tears in her eyes. Joey looked over at her.

"Don't even think about." said the adult looming over him. Joey looked up at him, then back at the red head, the tears threatening to break for her. Joey was about to say something when he heard Mister Christoph growl. He looked up. He grabbed his bat and his jacket and ran out the door.

"NO!!!!!" screamed the girl. She started to cry. "You can't leave me. Not again. I need you." She sat up, hugging her legs to her chest and started sobbing. Mister Christoph went over to the table. "Now, kids." He clasped his hands together. "Let's start with our math." The red head continued her sobbing.

Joey bolted from the front door and kept running from the school. He stopped and looked back. Then, he turned back and ran away.


*******************************************


The credits were rolling on the screen. Robert got up with his empty bowel and hit the stop button. He headed to the hallway when he ran into someone. He moved back and saw a woman a little shorter than him with shoulder length brown. "What are you doing here?" He looked curious, but didn't say anything. "Is this the life you want? You don't even know if it's possible." He tried to say something. "Oh, don't even try to give me that "hope" crap. You don't even know if she really exists. How do you know you didn't just make her up to calm your own mind down. That you didn't create someone that you can love completely just because you were lonely. If you continue thinking like this, you life is going to be miserable. You should get out there and live, but what are you doing? You're are staying the loner in hopes that what you want to be true is actually true. Then, none of the recent past will be the same because you can go back and change it. Do you really think those groups exist?"

He just looked at her. "Oh, god. You do. You are hoping against hope that they really exist and you can have the life you want." She walked to the other side. He turned with her. "Have they come yet. You've been wanting this for long time, praying everyday it will start. It's all you think about. God, you're pathetic."

"There's nothing pathetic about it."

She smiled at him and invaded his personal space. "Alright then. Tell me. When you're old and feeble...when you're on your death bed, lying up in a hospital...you're not gonna think you wasted your entire life waiting for something that never happened. You're gonna die a bitter old man with no friends...no one to take care about you. And I don't mean those that work at the hospital. They are paid to care about you. I'm talking about those that care about you because they want to care about you. Those that really love. Those people that are up here..." she tapped his left temple twice, "...don't actually exist. They can't actually be there to comfort you when you're hurt or scared or in pain. And they won't be there when you're lying there with tubes sticking in you every which way.

He growled and grabbed her by the throat with his left. He threw her agianst the wall on his right. "Shut up."

"Why? Because I'm saying what you don't want to hear? Because what I'm saying is what you know is true?"

"Shut up!!!" He ripped her throat out and she fell to her knees. Blood fell from her neck as she grabbed her throat. He reached down and pulled her head off with both hands.


To be continued...


VR
[> ok. I'm thinking this Robert guy has some issues. :-) -- GreatRewards, 14:12:45 06/21/02 Fri

[> Keeping the thread alive -- Your friendly neighborhood web hostess, 18:52:54 06/22/02 Sat

[> Fic Corner ? -- VR, 21:44:37 06/22/02 Sat

I've been asked to post my Robert vs Joey segments in the Fic corner by several posters. So, I figured, what the hell. Thing is, I don't know if there are any rules that would prohibit me from sending them and I forget what you need for submissions. Everytime I try to use the addy to send this question, I get a "failure to deliver" response. Can anyone let me know either way.

Thanks.
[> [> use this addy to send... -- Liq, 23:19:44 06/23/02 Sun

From Entertainment Weekly...'Buffy Revamps' season seven spoilers -- Rufus, 15:41:35 06/21/02 Fri

EW June 28/July 5, 2002
ONtheAir The latest news from the TV beat
by Lynette Rice

'Buffy Revamps'

No more downer days in Sunnydale. Look for Buffy the Vampire Slayer creator Joss Whedon to inject a little Prozac into the UPN drama when it returns for season 7 this fall. "Last season was about getting everyone so depressed they wanted to kill themselves, and next season's about bringing [the show] back to life", says Whedon. "I want to get back to where we started and to the theme, which is girl power." The action resumes at Sunnydale High with Dawn (Michelle Trachtenberg) becoming a freshman and Buffy (Sarah Michelle Gellar) starting...a new job! (Whedon won't divulge her profession, but wouldn't it be fitting if she replaced Anthony Stewart Head's Giles as the Librarian?). Whedon says a new villian, "everybody's worst nightmare," will wreak havoc in town while witchy Willow (Alyson Hannigan) will be off for a spell with Giles in England. "I'm shooting scenes with Alyson and Tony in his [real life English estate] for the Buffy premiere that involve Willow trying to deal with the magic in her that she can't get rid of." Oh, that old black magic. by William Keck
[> "Back To The Beginning" -- ZachsMind, 04:20:29 06/22/02 Sat

To me, "back to the beginning" means trying to salvage the old formula for story telling. In the first three seasons the problems that occurred usually resolved around the school in some way. They walked away from that in the "Graduation Day" two parter, when they effectively destroyed the high school. Three years have passed. Apparently more than sufficient time for the construction of a new Sunnydale High School on the same spot where the old one was. The Hellmouth is still there. They've closed it but they haven't found a way to remove it completely from the Earth.

Though she's not the Next Slayer, I strongly suspect Buffy will try to train Dawn in the ways of fighting vampires. If Dawn's going to insist on being a part of Buffy's life, and vice versa, Buffy's going to want Dawn able to defend herself. Instilling Dawn with knowledge is the best way to protect her baby sister. So in essence, Dawn will be at the start of season seven, where Buffy was with Giles at the start of season one. Back to the basics. Back to the beginning.

Dawn is starting her freshman year of high school next season, most probably at the new improved Sunnydale High. However, all the other regular BtVS characters have grown past high school. On the surface it would appear Dawn's going to be alone. There is a way for them to put Buffy and the Scoobies inside Sunnydale High - make them teachers. There's only one problem with that. Technically they're not qualified. Buffy dropped out of college. Xander never went. Willow had continued college after Buffy left, but there hasn't been enough time for her to graduate, and if Tara's death happened before the semester ended, odds are Willow never completed her junior year. She surely hasn't a diploma or the criteria for real teaching. At best she'd qualify as a substitute teacher. She also won't be in any condition to join the workforce until after she and Giles resolve things in England.

IF Giles returned permanently to Sunnydale, he could regain his position as school librarian, or he could get a position as a history teacher. OR since ASH's contract is still only a recurring character, the position of librarian could fall to Buffy or Willow, after a fashion. Xander is qualified to run a shop class - he's a carpenter after all. If failing that, he could work there as a janitor. Anya could get a position as guidance counselor or even principal. Halfrek proved last season that vengeance demons have the ability to slip in posing as faculty and no one questions it. Buffy would be ideal as a P.E. instructor. She may not have credentials but she could still do the job. Just imagine: Coach Buffy.

It can be argued that because of Sunnydale's history, the school board may have to stretch in order to get anyone even remotely qualified to come to work in that school. Besides the history of student and teacher deaths, the school itself blew up a few years back. The writers could make it very easy for our Scooby gang to infiltrate the school as its faculty. Which will in essence bring us back to square one. The visuals will be a little different, but the basic formula will return.

Big bad evil brews in Sunnydale High, and only the Scoobies can stop it. Back to the beginning.
[> [> Re: "Back To The Beginning" (S7 spoilers!) -- cjc36, 06:12:30 06/22/02 Sat

ZM, Great road map to possible writer-solutions on how S7 may break. I, personally, can't wait.

Rumors (according to AICN, I believe), that Mark Metcalf (the Master) has been contacted by ME. Wonder why?????
[> [> [> About The Master... -- ZachsMind, 10:25:48 06/22/02 Sat

Interesting to point out that when Buffy killed The Master's cronies who were trying to bring him back in "When She Was Bad," Collin was there. Buffy took a sledgehammer and beat The Master's bones to dust. After she saved her friends and left, Collin "The Annointed One" was in the last scene of that episode. I seem to recall a broom in the shot. It's very plausible that Collin collected The Master's dust together, and bottled it. Kept it somewhere for safe keeping. Admittedly, Spike killed Collin soon after that, but "The Annointed One" probably told someone where he kept The Master. The ritual to bring The Master back was only temporarily postponed.

Of course, in order to finish it, they'd have to bring together the four people who were closest to The Master at the time, and drain their blood to revive The Master. One of those people is dead (Jenny Calendar) and another is on another network (Cordelia Chase). Giles & Willow are still alive. Odds are the writers can't bleed two of the lead roles in order to bring The Master back. So they'll need another plan. Shouldn't be difficult to write up a different ritual that an audience would believe. Or they could go a different route completely.

When Anya lost her power center initially in "The Wish," she had created that Bizarro World where The Master was in charge of Sunnydale. It's possible now that Anya's got her vengeance demon's powers back, she might be able to return to that world and get back her necklace. She may only need it for sentimental value at this point, but while doing so she could accidently unleash The Master of that Bizarro World on Buffy's world. Either way, let the mean old Master festivities begin. I'll bring the salsa.
[> [> [> [> Re: About The Master...I came up with a possibility (spec) -- shadowkat, 15:01:48 06/22/02 Sat

Well I heard that rumor too and came up with a couple of possibilities:

1. Spike. He gets a soul. But the Lurker gives him an "extension" or "hitch-hiker" buried beneath that soul - the Master's essence which can hitch and infect only one of his line (spike is - since Darla was made by the Master, and Spike is three down). So instead of the demon soul currently inhabiting Spike, he now has the Master's and William's soul.
As a result we have split personality Spike. In Vamp form, he's The MAster, in human form - he's William.
Dr. William and Mr. Master.

2. The Master's ashes are connected with the energy of the hellmouth - all someone has to do is a resurrection spell to give them life and rebuild the highschool. A powerful
witch could do it.

3. On witches - have we forgotten Catherine Madison whose
soul is still trapped in that statute which was lying on the floor of the high school in the Doomed shooting script??

Just some ideas. Personally can't see them going the Spike route. But who knows.
[> [> Re: "Back To The Beginning" -- Penguin, 08:26:50 06/22/02 Sat

Buffy doesn't have the qualifications to be a teacher or librarian but she could be hired as a school security guard. Principal Snyder would be rolling over in his "grave".
[> [> [> School´s have security guards? -- grifter, 08:41:31 06/22/02 Sat

School´s have security guards? Whoa...you wacky americans!
[> [> [> [> Re: School´s have security guards? -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:40:52 06/22/02 Sat

The ones with lots of gang activity do. And, given that killer monsters are usually hidden as PCP dealing gangs, Sunnydale High would probably want guards.

Actually, for Buffy's new job, I suggest that the whole Scooby Gang pitch their money to buy the Bronze. (I'm also hoping the Summers' house will burn down, providing insurance money and Buffy's chance to move into an apartment across the hall from either Xander or Anya).
[> [> Isn't Dawn going to be a sophmore? -- aurelia, 09:38:03 06/22/02 Sat

Unless she has to repeat 9th grade, which would really suck beyond the telling of it.
[> [> [> I thought she was gonna be a freshman... -- ZachsMind, 11:08:56 06/22/02 Sat

But then I suck at math. =)

Well let's see.. Buffy turned 18 in season three (Helpless) and turned 20 in season five (Blood Ties) so at the point of "Real Me" Buffy is 19. In that same episode (Real Me) Dawn admits she's 14. I know not when Dawn's birthday is. Well since she was technically never born she might not have a birthday. It should be safe to say there's a five or six year difference between Dawn & Buffy's ages. This means even when Buffy started in high school, Dawn was only ten years old and attending fifth grade. Well, if she wasn't a green ball of energy at the time. So if Buffy was 15 in season one, she'd be 22 in season seven, that means Dawn is either 16 or 17 now. So okay. She would be a sophomore. I think.

Some American high schools are 9-12th grade, but some districts put 9th graders in with the junior high school. It depends on the overcrowding, teacher resources, city tradition, bussing factors and a whole lot of other things. Putting 9th graders in junior high also seems to curtail hazing a bit, because seniors in high school don't have the freshmen to haze, and have to pick on sophomores. It's just not as fun. =)
[> [> [> Dawn will be a sophmore. -- Liana, 11:55:49 06/22/02 Sat

[> The Big Bad -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:36:35 06/22/02 Sat

I'm hoping with all my heart that Season 7's Big Bad is a vampire. That would be getting back to the roots. I've come up with some possibilities:

1) The first vampire ever made.

2) A Slayer who was made into a vampire.

3) Someone Buffy cares about is vamped.

4) Spike does a Faith. Unable to handle the guilt of his actions, he becomes worse than he ever was.
Btvs Actors Tease S7 -- Jane's Addiction, 06:40:40 06/22/02 Sat

"Will Little Dawney date? Will Willow recover? Spike the Big Bad CrackerJack Boy. And other vexing mysteries of Season 7..."

Sort of an interesting little article on Sci Fi Wire with comments from AH, JM and MT about Season 7.

MT must really hate wearing those sneakers. But isn't she already the tallest woman in the cast? "...We love that you're happy with the heels, Michelle. Now let me show you the trench we're going to have you walking in all this season..."
[> Re: Btvs Actors Tease S7 -- shadowkat, 14:52:31 06/22/02 Sat

Once again...they tell us about all the characters that we can predict, but nothing on the one we can't (ie. Spike).

Oh - poor AH, she thinks we hate Willow? How many people
have forgiven her? I forgave while she was doing it.

One wonders what they're planning with Spike, they really are working hard to keep the lid on that aren't they? LOL!
[> [> Re: Btvs Actors Tease S7 -- Jane's Addiction, 19:13:46 06/22/02 Sat

Yeah, since the writers have talked about how they really don't want to tell the Angel story over again (just with really high cheek bones!), I tend to think this "Re-Soul Man" isn't exactly going to be brooding hugs and puppies boy. I am looking forward to a bloody awful haiku or two, but I'm just twisted that way.

And, call me amoral, but I too had no trouble forgiving Willow.
[> [> [> Forgiving Willow (Spoilers for S6) -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 20:09:09 06/22/02 Sat

Umm, guys . . .

yes, I understand why Willow did what she did; I don't even object too much to her killing Warren.

What terrifies me is HOW she did it; Hannibal Lecter would have applauded. Immense willingness to inflict pain and serious lack of humanity -- "Bored now."

Now, maybe she can put the fuzzy-sweater, sugar & spice lid on that but that particular savagery needs REAL WORK to send away -- and until it does Willow is more Little Miss Dangerous than Faith ever was.
Interesting article I found about Domestic Abuse and Gender Role Reversal in Season 6. -- VHF, 08:56:17 06/22/02 Sat

By Kristen Smirnov

Since this issue has come up again recently, I thought I'd share the letter I recently sent to Marti and Joss regarding different kinds of sexual abuse as portrayed this season. I'm aware that this might anger some people, and that's truly not my intention. I'll just say that, as a college student on a liberal campus, I've been exposed to a staggering wave of excused or ignored domestic abuse doled out by females that seems to increase with every semester. I'm hyper-sensitive to it, and that's the stance where I'm coming from with this.



I've been letting this letter stew for a while to see if my feelings changed. I knew this would be a long letter, addressing a touchy and uncomfortable issue. But it was one raised by the show throughout the season, and was one approached from increasingly unsettling ways. Thus, I felt compelled to write in the hopes that my viewpoint, even if it's not shared by anyone on the writing staff, might at least have its validity considered.

I read interviews done by the Mutant Enemy writers and have noticed a disturbing trend. To say that Buffy's treatment of Spike was not domestic abuse is disingenuous at best and dangerous and immoral at worst, and to see it excused the way it has been turns my stomach. The gender roles were so thoroughly reversed this season that the stereotypical "bad boyfriend" actions were nearly drowning me as they rolled off Buffy. Yet, we were constantly told that she was simply coming from a confused place, not a bad one, and that there was much angst from her resurrection that she was trying and failing to deal with.

While trying to explain this to a friend who had a hard time visualizing a female as an abuser, I used the following analogy. A man is in a bad place in his life, the points of which have arisen from his friends' actions. There is a woman, one with a dangerous past who is now of rapidly greying morality, who he knows to be deeply in love with him. After brushing her off when she attempts to talk seriously with him about their having kissed means, they get in a fight. It ends with him shoving her up against a wall and taking her, correctly assuming she would want to begin physical relations... but assuming. The morning after the sex he initiated, they get in a verbal fight which ends with the man telling the woman that if she tells anyone of their encounter, he'll kill her.

It was at about this point that my friend began to develop a furrowed brow over this new angle upon which the occurrences of the season could be viewed from. I went on past the man setting an "alarm system" to keep out the evil temptress who was obviously working her evil wiles on him. Now he again seeks to distract himself from his day to day problems. He goes over to the woman's house, storms in, throws her against the wall, and rips open her clothes before she even processes who's there. The moment she does so, she's thrown to the floor and he initiates sex once again.

Here's where it gets seriously dicey. The man is considerably stronger than the woman (she couldn't lift something--the Troll Hammer--that he was swinging around like a badminton racquet) and has pressed her into sex that the audience has seen she wanted. After he has fun humiliating her in front of an acquaintance, she realizes she's being used and tells him to leave. In short, the person who's never said no says it loud and clear. The man promptly ignores her clear wishes and initiates sexual contact. When she finally manages to shove him away, he isn't remorseful; he's annoyed and petulant that he didn't get his way.

In my world, overriding someone's clear and unquestioned revocation of sexual consent is rape. The gender of the attacker doesn't matter, nor does the gender of the victim. How upsetting was it, I thought as I watched this, that clear sexual assault was being presented as nothing more than a throwaway joke?

The same issue arose when Willow wiped Tara's memories of an argument in All The Way, only to engage in sexual relations with her in Once More, With Feeling. This was clearly a blatant and purposeful bending of someone's wishes in order to keep the target in line with their own desires. Later, Tara would say that her mind had been violated; no, it was more than her mind. She did the right thing and separated herself from her attacker, but then returned to her later in the season with a desire to get "right to the kissing." This was, to say the least, highly distressing.

I watched two women not only commit sexual assault this season, but have it excused either in the show or in writer interviews. Worse than that, it was never even acknowledged as anything akin to rape, it was just another vague "bad thing" they'd doled out that seemed to be beyond their control.

Now we come to the events in Seeing Red. Suddenly the audience is expected to forget everything they've been shown up until that point in the season. Ignoring clear revocation of sexual consent was a joke; now, a situation that develops out of that fact that there can no longer be clear communication of any sort is sold as rape, and the audience is expected to buy it. To say that, well, Buffy said "no" is coy and self-defeating... all it does is reinforce the fact that she was annoyed and showed no remorse when Spike had to physically prove to her that no did indeed mean no.

Going back to my earlier analogy, the man is obviously ashamed of his relationship with this morally questionable woman. He takes advantage of her being willing to take his abuse to work through issues created by others, and takes advantage of it frequently. A consistent and systematic pattern of abuse develops out of his treatment of her, where he not only physically beats her but also decries any and all attempts she makes at improving her moral lot in life as futile from the start. When she asks him to explain these questions of ethics, he hits her again.

Most distressing of all, he does not ever let her approach him for sex the way he feels free to do with her. When he feels like a go, the woman gets easily tossed around; when she wants it, she has to "overpower" the person who is much, much stronger than her. So convinced is the man that the woman he chose to initiate a relationship with is below his moral standards that he forces this person who loves him to "make" him have sex. After all, he would never willingly allow this "disgusting, evil thing" to touch him of his own volition. It's absurd to watch, knowing that he could throw her free at any moment. But so convinced is he of her utter lack of redeeming qualities beyond sexual prowess that he forces her into believing that the only communication he'll allow is through sex, and that if she wants to open up these lines of communication, she must "overpower" him.

It has been said that Spike and Buffy cannot be compared to a real life couple, being supernatural creatures, yet that seems to be exactly what the audience has been encouraged to do through the events of this season. The issues faced by them may have had their supernatural origins as catalysts, but are based in simple human emotions. We're seemingly invited to bring our own interpretations to the table for their interactions, and I have obviously done so above. By making two simple changes (gender and humanity), my friend suddenly changed his tune about whether or not Buffy had been a cold-hearted, remorseless abuser; now there seemed no question of it.

That this so easily changed in his head is what worries me about what the audience is expected to take from this season. Buffy knew Spike wanted to talk about what was going on and that he'd never said no; her overpowering him was presented as a joke. Spike attempts to stay away from Buffy after being dumped by her, is twice made to feel guilty for daring to direct his attentions towards another woman, tries to rip out his own emotions so he can stop hurting so much, and then attempts to "communicate" with the person who has denied him any other means of doing so, and we're expected to see rape.

Sorry. I don't buy it. I don't buy that Buffy directing abuse towards someone innocent of her resurrection was just a sign of her "wrongness" and nothing more to be concerned about. I don't buy that she didn't force Spike into actions and roles he didn't want to play. I don't buy that forcing someone weaker into patterns of behavior and communication carries no weight when it ultimately results in a terrible moment between the two.

If sexual assault had been presented in a consistent manner throughout the season, perhaps the scene would have been believable as what it's promptly labeled as... but this falls firmly in third place behind the sins perpetuated by Buffy and Willow in the same arena. More than that, Xander immediately assumes rape... why? As far as he knows, Spike can't hurt Buffy. All I can see is a sign of a mindset that men rape while women are victimized. And as Buffy was portrayed as the victim during it, all I could think yet again was that this was absurd. She's supposedly injured enough to compensate for her much greater strength, yet this incredible injury is gone by the time she goes to fight Warren in the next scene. The drama of the moment is emphasized by a complete lack of background music, yet Buffy ignoring his "no" was accompanied by a wacky score.

That fingers have been pointed at Spike while Buffy and Willow are excused has put me in a terribly uncomfortable place with people who have indeed bought into the idea of "men rapists, women victims." Looking at it from a gender neutral stance, I clearly see two successful sexual assaults this season and one violent encounter that developed out of the toxic communication patterns laid out by one partner. Yet, thanks to the stances assumed by Mutant Enemy in their interviews, I have people asking me how I can "excuse rape" and that I'm obviously attempting to "cloud the issue" by bringing up Buffy